RTR VS Scratch Built?

[Jack Skip]

Real talk. New to rock crawling but not RC. Which way would you go?

RTR plus all the upgrade $$$s as you upgrade or fix broken parts. I get low spending to see if you like the sport, learning driving skills, etc. Then there is the lure of bling parts and tinkering and tweaking.

VS

Scratch building with quality parts. Buy quality buy once. Satisfaction when it works in the end.

Which way would you go if you were starting out now?

[Jack Skip]

"Raise the shocks, if they are parallel to the upper links it causes body roll".

Not sure if this is true, but it made me ponder and think about all the areas where angles come into play:

Width of upper links on the body and the axle
Width of lower links on the body and the axle
Height difference between upper and lower links on the body
Shock placement on axles and body

Is there a perfect geometry to strive for? What works and what doesn't?

For example. I saw a "tummy tuck mod" that moved the lower link on the body to the same spot on the body used by the upper link. Is this sacrificing something else for gaining ground clearance? Is there a better body design to get the ground clearance without any sacrifice?

Or am I thinking too much?

[Speedy-Triple]

given you already have rc's ..... you know these things multiply quickly. so starting with an RTR would be best if you just want to try the crawling side of the RC world ... but to be honest you will likely have a second third fourth and so on crawlers. plenty of RTRs to choose from that will be great performers and plenty of part support available. phoenix, basecamp, enduro SE, Capra 4ws and many others would be in my radar... see how quickly multiply different platforms with different suspension set ups. I also like building and engineering parts (3d print or build) using different manufacturers and piece a kit together and choose proven electronics that will make your kit experience a lot more rewarding by putting your own spin on it ... I like tinkering and now i have quite a few rigs where one is on the bench while i can still take out the other ones on to the backyard. plus it keeps my boys busy playing and fixing learning how to work with tools and wrenches rather than being on the screen.

[bgredjeep]

If you are brand new to crawling, how do you even know what you need in a scratch build? Blindly taking advice from strangers on the internet on the right way to build, or the must have parts list?

Imo, running a stock crawler (rtr or kit build) you learn what you need to change to make the car work for you and what you end up using it for.

If there's one thing the variety of crawlers out there shows, it's that no one formula checks the box for everyone. Ok maybe a built Bomber. Lol

[twade984]

For me personally, I think you’re better off getting an rtr first. The quality of rtr’s is so much better than even 3 years ago. (Excluding the 10.2 dead bolt, it’s still the same)

There are many aspects to this hobby, and you can spend a lot of time and money figuring out what appeals to you most. Early on for me it was driving, the it was “building” kits and pieced together trucks. Now it’s a balance of those and lack of free time.

I like having a couple go to rigs ready to drive when I get time and the weather cooperates. And I like having a project in the works.

I also enjoy buying and selling quite a bit, so it’s not unusual for me to buy a kit, assemble it, and then part it out before driving or even painting it.

But I place a lot of value on having owned and driven a lot of “stock” or rtr rigs.


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[Jack Skip]

Thank you for the advice. With advice on RTRs to look at. Much appreciated

[smog]

If I were starting out now I would start with an RTR to get going. As already pointed out, to start I would key in on tuning it to my liking. If I wanted more bench time I likely would pick up a kit and slowly build up a second rig at the same time. Personally I find it enjoyable to have an incomplete project around that I can go work on should I get the desire.

It seems that for most of the vocal guys on here they will have several crawlers at any one time. Being a hobby, if it hooks you it really doesn’t take long before you accumulate stuff. There is lots to try out. There are more and more independent fabricators as well as larger companies marketing crawlers than ever. The hobby has never been this rich.

Enjoy!

[HumboldtEF]

You're not overthinking there can be alot at play. Like with most things theres isnt always a "best" just what you might prefer.

Here's an old thread with tons of useful info, most of the pictures are missing but I added a few videos on one of the last pages that goes over crawler specific suspensions:
Another 4 Link Thread

The height difference between upper and lower links on the body is probably one of the bigger aspects, this dictates the anti squat/anti dive value. This value isnt set in stone, you might prefer more, you might prefer less.

Theres a ton of info to take into account so watching the videos twice might help. I still dont entirely grasp every aspect but I feel like the thread linked and videos provided a good foundation to build on.

[Jack Skip]

Awesome. Thank you so much. Lots to look at, and just what I was hoping for.

[MAC FAB]

I scratch built my Bomber, built it heavy and pretty much bullet proof. 99% of the time it stays rubber down, built that way. I also have a rtr Bomber, no upgraded parts other than bodywork. I enjoy it. I have an og Capra, bone stock, I’m content with that as well other than still wheel shopping. I have no exposure to comp events, let alone meeting up for trail runs, all solo. I expect scale performance and get it in my eyes, rtr and stock. As for piecing one together, unless you have money to blow, why? I run plastic axles because I would be afraid to mess up the bling. I too came to crawlers from other rc stuff, where Baja desert race rigs got my attention, class 1 buggies, not TT rigs, scratch building most everything, reaching performance goals that exceeded scale performance by an easy 10 fold. That said, what are your expectations and desires for a crawler’s performance and abilities? I’d start there and go accordingly.

[JimInMiami]

The quality of the new vanquish products phoenix RTR is such that you won’t be really making any compromises performance wise. Comes with a quality programmable radio to boot. https://www.amainhobbies.com/vanquis...yABEgJuVPD_BwE

[Ragenwraith]

First of all welcome to scale/crawling. I started racing off road in 1986. Still have 3 Associated RC10s which you had to build from kits to go racing. Out of the sport for many years. That said my first crawler was the 2011 OG Axial Wraith kit. I always thought it was a good idea to build one from a kit just to get to know how they go together and to get that feeling hey, I built this. I still run the Wraith in it's stock form to this day. The only thing that has broke on it was the front bumper. The next rig for me was my retirement gift from my kids. It's an Axial Deadbolt SCXII RTR. That has become my go to crawler. Still all stock. It just performs great as is. It goes everywhere built rigs go when I run it with the groups that go out here in the Phoenix are. Recently I picked up an Axial Base Camp SCXIII RTR. Found it really cheap on FB Marketplace new in the box. Another great crawler. So far I put on some weighted beadlock rims with 4.19 Hyrax tires. This one will get mods as things break. There are good kits out there as well as RTRs. With Vanquish hitting the market with the Phoenix RTR I think that's the best bang for your buck at this time.

I'm going to say RTR is the way to go. The only other things you need to buy are batteries and a charger. There's a lot of videos on free mods to do to these RTR rigs without spending any money. When things break update. Then get out there and have fun!

If you haven't seen them yet check out SBC-Scale Builders Guild and Harley Designs out on YouTube for some great content on building any RC scale/crawler.

[Jack Skip]

Thank you everyone. Lots to think about. Maybe starting with expectations.

Have also seen much about the Danchee Ridgerock and the ECX Temper Gen 2. 2 different sized rigs. Any thoughts on 1/10 vs 1/18?

Both on the value side. Which is where I saw a LOT of upgrades happening.

If too close to toy grade for these, the question stands on scale 1/10 vs 1/18

[Jack Skip]

So I take it MOA breaks all the rules. I think I saw something about MOA not being allowed in some competitions. Is this why?

[high plains drifter]

Originally Posted by Jack Skip

Thank you everyone. Lots to think about. Maybe starting with expectations.

Have also seen much about the Danchee Ridgerock and the ECX Temper Gen 2. 2 different sized rigs. Any thoughts on 1/10 vs 1/18?

Both on the value side. Which is where I saw a LOT of upgrades happening.

If too close to toy grade for these, the question stands on scale 1/10 vs 1/18

I like 1/18 and really dig 1/24 too. But as a first crawling rig I'd still go with a larger 1/10 out of the killer options available now. You'll for sure like the performance and realism aspect better. You also might like a smaller rig too but I feel like your initial experience will be better with 1/10. It's the perfect size for outdoor crawling and the way they drive will 'hook' you most definitely. Then from there you'll know better if you want to go down in size to a 1/18 at some point. But yeah.. first rig should be 1/10 imo.

[ferp420]

if your patiant scratch building is alot of fun and if your good you dont waist any money and get only what you want
if you want instant gratification buy a rtr and be running in a hour or 2
the kit falls somewere in between still leaves you upgrade room out of the box and you have a mostly complete rig with in a few hours
micros are awsome a great way to figure out if you like crawling but are a pain in the ass to work on
1/6 vary exspensive and alot easyer to work on and customize cause now every barbi or doll house accessory fits your rc too

most 1/10 scale rigs today are really 1/8th scale and thats what most of my rigs are and kinda the sweet spot for price and size and accessories and are still easy to build/work on

[chevy42083]

As someone who has 2 kits 85% complete, but just trying to figure out the last bit of perfection.... I wish I'd bought RTR and upgraded.
Though, both can be so expensive that its really up to your taste and habits lol

A kit is a lot easier later if you have a stash of parts (or maybe some of your other gear would work).
An rtr would have a lot of redundancy for someone that wants a different body, already has a stash of wheels/tires, servos, maybe esc, and a radio that handles multiple trucks. BUT... its up and running and gets you on the rocks quicker ;)

[chevy42083]

MOA 'breaks the rules" because you don't have toque from the chassis to the to the axle, so link geometry plays MUCH less, or none at all.
Also, its literally against competition rules because its simply so different. Its literally a self contained axle with a chassis tethering it to another... allowing all sorts of cool tricks from COG, to dig, to overdrive, to link clearance, to separate throttle mixing, etc etc. Its simply a different animal, so has its own class.

The geometry of links is all a trade off. Its depends on what you need, the space you have, your terrain, etc etc.
E.G. by having both links to the same height on the chassis, you get rid of all aspects you'd gain from a 'traction bar' type setup. But you have a higher belly.
If your shocks are parallel to your links, they aren't doing anything... they cant be compressed. But getting CLOSER to parallel than vertical means you've got a lower center of gravity (yes, they soften, but we all tune shocks anyways... so you'd just stiffen them to offset it)

[ussprinceton2004]

I prefer scratch built vs. RTR.

[Col_Sanders]

The benefit of a scratch build is that you can build exactly what you want without wasting $$ on parts you are just going to toss in the parts bin as you upgrade. The problem with a scratch build is that there are lots of small random parts that are going to add up to be $$ and odds are, if it is your first build, you are going to end up forgetting some stuff so be prepared to make several orders.

RTRs used to be crap but there are some better ones out now like the Vanquish Phoenix.

I like kits, especially if it is a new platform. I like to see how everything goes together and I get to pick my own electronics.