W.Pa.C. Summer Series Comp #2 (July 15th)

[bustedcrawler]

Originally Posted by phat crawler

it is for fun thats what im saying but i i have 2 rigs and im running both of them who is busted to say i cant. i dont care about the rules of some other club we are are own club we try to follow others guideline but some people are just flying off with rules in the middle of the season . its as if they think they can just change stuff about the club on there own ...this is a club i think we need a management change cause every problem we have has been handled poorly so far in my eyes.... this is a democracy a club and its called w.pa.c we need change

This is not mid season. We had 1 comp and with 20 Chiefs and 2 Indians it turned into a cluster. We, like every other club on this board, follow USRCCA rules as our guidelines. The 1 rig per class rule is not a rule I made up, but an USRCCA rule, that I had not noticed before. I talked it over with John, and it came out early.

What problems have we had that were handled incorrectly? How could things have been handled better?

Do we need a management change do to things not being handled correctly or because this rule hits close to home?

[bustedcrawler]

Originally Posted by STEEL_CITY_CRAWLER

i do agree with that, some of us have other financial obligations, like families and homes...



not true, just because you can throw $1000 at each rig you have does'nt mean you won't STILL get schooled by the guy with a bare-bones set-up that is just a better driver....

also, i don't mind people running 2 trucks per class IF the turnout is say less than maybe 10 or 15 people, but if we start getting more than say 15, then the one truck rule should be strictly enforced...

another thing, if it is a points series, you would have to determine which truck you want to count for your points standing! that's where running more than one truck can become unfair! just because someone can run 2 trucks in the same class, doesn't mean that they should get points counted for both of them!!!

Finally someone who gets it!

[bustedcrawler]

Originally Posted by StIcK kInG

i do not agree to the one rig policy as i stated in my earlier post but if this rule sticks for our club... i say we should at least have the option to run our second rig as back up if our first rig breaks.

each comp is different and as we all know one rig may kick @ss at one comp and fall on its face the next.

If you are using a second rig as a back-up, then I can see that not being an issue. That may work.

I am not worried about how you and phatC are coming off. I know you two are passionate about the club, but understand where I am at. After this comp, I have to report to the USRCCA rules Committee. I need to show how WE, the WPaC, are working as a club and have used the rules to meet our needs. You guys merely got caught up in the moment and it shows in the posts. No sweat off my back, as I want to see this club grow and work as well as the others I was in.

Now let's all relax, look at all sides of this issues and find away where those with 1 rig won't be penalized and those with more than one won't be penalized.

[bustedcrawler]

Originally Posted by DRCMAN

I agree for sure. I definitely agree that one rig should only count for points. Also Why not have non-point counting gtg's like before the points comps?????? Everyone could run as many rigs as they wanted and we could still keep score just for bragging rights

That's were things like this past weekend at AB-C are coming in!

[bustedcrawler]

Originally Posted by StIcK kInG

like you said. if it is a points series, you would have to determine which truck you want to count for your points standing! that's where running more than one truck can become unfair! just because someone can run 2 trucks in the same class, doesn't mean that they should get points counted for both of them!!!
like i said b4, if you have two comparable rigs, one may do better one comp and DNA the next. you never know. a one rig limit is total b.s. two rig limit seems @ least fair to both sides. the better score out of the two rigs you run in that class keep. sound fair & simple enough? what do you guys think?

Well...that will work. I guess it wasn't made clear at Clune or at Ohiopyle that this is a Points Series. That is our fault as Club Officers, and I will take most of the blame as Rule Chair.

All I will say is, if we go with 1 rig only for points, is that rig must be run first.

[bustedcrawler]

Originally Posted by STEEL_CITY_CRAWLER

no, i was thinking more along the lines of you would have to determine which truck gets points BEFORE any runs are made.

running both, then deciding which truck score you want to keep is DEFINATELY NOT FAIR to the guys that only have run truck to run. it's almost like getting a do-over with your second truck!!!

This is the most fair way to do it for all involved.

[bustedcrawler]

Originally Posted by DRCMAN

Ok StIcK kInG I see where you are coming from. But I do agree that it is like taking the best score from your best run, or like a do over. If that is the decision all competitors would have to run the course X equal times; wether it be with the same truck or not. There still would have to be a rig limit, if someone pulls out 3+ rigs in the same class 3 runs x each competitor .
Man that would be a long comp. Just a thought Anyway lets keep it :-P
See you guys at ABC or on the 15th.

This is the point that was missed earlier in the heat of the moment. There is an unfair advantage to those with more than 1 rig. If you call out your points truck during tech, and then want to run another, then go for it. That will be fine.

[phat crawler]

busted i dont get where u come off with i shoulkd have my rig ready mines has been ready at every comp i never had a problem with a late start u just come outta the blue with these rules halfway through the season i dont care about a national or a invite im here to compete against my freinds and self i dont want double points i just wanna run what i built and put time and money into ... and i wouldve never voted u in if i knew u would act like this like i said i think some changes are needed .. i think that u are to high on your rule hoarse. we are not a big club and its for fun not to get a invite .....and who would like to spend all there money on a another rig and all of a sudden u say no. forget that we dont follow every rule to the teeth as is .once again were not in colorado anymore if u like the way they run then go run with them. this aint your club its all of ours

[bustedcrawler]

Originally Posted by phat crawler

busted i dont get where u come off with i shoulkd have my rig ready mines has been ready at every comp i never had a problem with a late start u just come outta the blue with these rules halfway through the season i dont care about a national or a invite im here to compete against my freinds and self i dont want double points i just wanna run what i built and put time and money into ... and i wouldve never voted u in if i knew u would act like this like i said i think some changes are needed .. i think that u are to high on your rule hoarse. we are not a big club and its for fun not to get a invite .....and who would like to spend all there money on a another rig and all of a sudden u say no. forget that we dont follow every rule to the teeth as is .once again were not in colorado anymore if u like the way they run then go run with them. this aint your club its all of ours

Look man, I am not busting your balls or making this personal, just pointing things out and making examples. That was an example not a personal attack. To use your words if "I am killen you then leave". This was a rule that I missed and brought up to John that this was something to be brought up at the GTG for the club to go over. Not that this was set in stone. PLEASE show me where I set this in stone. Where? It is not there. You have John mentioning it. This was a point to be discussed at the GTG or comp.


No offense man, but stop, ask, listen, and don't assume. Assuming makes an @ss out of you and me. Had you given me the chance to post up earlier, this would have been cleared up. But instead I come home to a full page of attacks at me, how I have done things, how I am trying to screw the club, how this isn't CO, how I am dicking over the members of the club. How would you enjoy that after a day of prepping for the comp? Of helping another member get a 2nd truck ready?

Look at what I have posted...I am all for letting everyone as many rigs as they can afford as long as only 1 gets points. Its in there man, I want everyone to walk away happy.

If you think I am unfit...then bring it up as club business at the next meeting. I am all for making sure the right person is in the right office. As you guys keeping hammering home this is a Club not a few people, and we can vote. I will not be hurt, pissed, offend or any of the like if you want me out. This isn't going to effect how I am at the comps, how I will treat you or act around you, or anything of that nature. Just try to understand that there are some in the club outside of myself who would like to goto nationals, and we need to please everyone.


One last thing...Please tell me what you want to see differently. I can not help to make the changes needed to make sure everyone is happy if I don't know what you want.

I am doing my best to try and help all involved, so please let us know, as officers, what can be changed for the best.

[DRCMAN]

Originally Posted by bustedcrawler

I can tell you for a FACT, Bender runs 1 and only 1 rig per class. As mentioned before, this 1 rig per class rule was voted on by USRCCA, the national organization.

I am not sure how you can comment on there being too much money thrown around when you are for having more than 1 rig per class. 1 rig is money enough, much less 2 or 3 per class.

I think you are starting to see where I am coming from. I want everyone to bring there best rig to compete with. Afterwards, then let's thrown down with some good ole fashioned follow the leader with how ever man rigs you want to bring and run.

Point well taken Looking forward to the 15th

[bustedcrawler]

Rules modification for review:

Any driver can enter any number of vehicles in any class however, only one (1) rig to be identified during tech inspection will be run for W.Pa.C. series points.




Please discuss and give feedback on the fairness of this rule, so that it can be voted on at the 15th comp.

[phat crawler]

all this is just circles around the fact that u cant change the rules half way through a year or just change them by yourself without thought of anyone else cause it dont affect you. i want this club to work more than anyone i am a founding member of this before it was even on rcc as a thought. i just never knew it would be like this so strict so many rules i mean there should be a general set to abide by but u seem to wanna knit pick everything that everyone does. and for your info i never wanted some kinda double points i just wanted to run both my trucks and compete agianst the people that are present and i never assume like u think u stated u didnt want more than one rig per class and when i said it was stupid u said i was killing you ............the only change i see we need to make is we need someone that aint anal over stupid rules if the truck is legal to run then run it as many as u want the club will just benifet cause u will collect more comp fees and that means more money for cool stuff and to advance our club more .....and u wanna talk rules i think a real coarse is more than 5 gates and scalers dont run with 2.2 those are just some rules we dont abide by now why aret u anal about that ? and im bringing it up now in the forum now that we need changes in this club to advance as a better club and fun to run not a pro club that 2 people might get picked once a year to go compete

[bustedcrawler]

Originally Posted by phat crawler

all this is just circles around the fact that u cant change the rules half way through a year or just change them by yourself without thought of anyone else cause it dont affect you. i want this club to work more than anyone i am a founding member of this before it was even on rcc as a thought. i just never knew it would be like this so strict so many rules i mean there should be a general set to abide by but u seem to wanna knit pick everything that everyone does. and for your info i never wanted some kinda double points i just wanted to run both my trucks and compete agianst the people that are present and i never assume like u think u stated u didnt want more than one rig per class and when i said it was stupid u said i was killing you ............the only change i see we need to make is we need someone that aint anal over stupid rules if the truck is legal to run then run it as many as u want the club will just benifet cause u will collect more comp fees and that means more money for cool stuff and to advance our club more .....and u wanna talk rules i think a real coarse is more than 5 gates and scalers dont run with 2.2 those are just some rules we dont abide by now why aret u anal about that ? and im bringing it up now in the forum now that we need changes in this club to advance as a better club and fun to run not a pro club that 2 people might get picked once a year to go compete

Dude, I never changed the rules...why can't you get that. This was a rule missed, that I caught that needed to be discussed. I brought it up to John, our Pres, I never made it a "rule", just pointed out that there was one that applied to the club that needed to be addressed.

I never said you were killing me. Please look at YOUR post, post #23, where you said that if you were killing me I should step down. Those are your words not mine. This doesn't bother me. Just wish your passion for the club wasn't directed at removing me and belittling me at the moment.

How do you think I didn't stop to think about anyone else? If anything, I care more about everyone more than me. Hence why I wish we could have more scalers running, so we can separate them and why I want everyone to have a fair shot at winning in the comp.

How am I nit picking? Did I hassle you or anyone during tech? Did I freak when there was a truck that competed in 2.2 that didn't go through tech? I did a basic tech, to make sure that the rigs match our guideline rules, the USRCCA rules. That was it, nothing more, nothing less.

You also did not see, due to us being thrown out, the course at Casparis. There were 2 courses, with 6-8 gates, with the top 5 in each class going into a shoot out course of 10 gates at the end. Please do not make blanket judgments based off of that one comp. I wanted everyone to run, and we had shot the day driving around to find a spot that day.

Do you want to have to sit and wait on us to build a scaler course, and then get judges, and run a scaler course for, what 2 trucks? That can be done, but right now it is hard enough if the 2.2s run first to have people around to help run the super comp. Or vice versa.

Per the 2007 USRCCA each course should be 3-10 gates. We meet that rule, and I plan on having more course at future comps, starting the 15th. The first comp was just rough on all of us.

As an aside, there is no might, next year and every year that W.Pa.C and USRCCA are around, and W.Pa.C. is having a competition points series there will be 4 invites to Nationals to our club members, this is set in stone.

Does the rule change above fit?

[Crawln Coles]

Vehicle Requirements Class 1 - Super Crawler Class: • No limits on wheelbase, vehicle track width or height. • No limits on tire type or size. • Limited to 4-wheeled vehicles only. • No limits to steering configuration. • You must run a body (full tube chassis is acceptable). • The body must be 1/10th scale or larger. • The body can be cut/modified but must retain 70% of its original form, but the width of the cab must be the factory width. • Body should resemble its original form (jeep bodies look like a jeeps) Class 2 – Class 2.2: If a Class 2 vehicle violates any of the following requirements it must run in Class 1. • Vehicle wheelbase is a maximum 12.5 inches. • Vehicle track width is a maximum 12.5 inches. • Limited to 2.2 inch wheels or smaller. • Limited to 4-wheeled vehicles only. • Vehicles are limited to 2-wheel steering only. • You must run a body (full tube chassis is acceptable). • The body must be 1/10th scale or larger. • The body can be cut/modified but must retain 70% of its original form, but the width of the cab must be the factory width. • Body should resemble its original form (jeep bodies look like a jeeps) Class 3 – Unlimited Class: • No limits of any kind. • No limits on bodies. • No limits on wheelbase, vehicle track width or height. • No limits to steering configuration. General Event Rules & Event Management • RCC recognizes some events/clubs may need some local rules to accommodate there terrain and group size. Please post these exceptions in event notifications. • Lowest total score wins. • Scoring starts as the vehicle brakes the plane of the first gate of a stage. Scoring stops when the Vehicle breaks the plane of the last gate of a stage. • No pre-running the courses. Drivers that pre-run a course/stage will receive a DNF for that stage. • Starting order will be a random draw for the first course. The running order of subsequent courses will be run with the first place driver driving first, and the next lowest driving next, and so on. • Winching or ramping of any kind is not allowed. • You cannot run the same vehicle in more than one class. • The vehicle must finish a course in the same wheelbase, track width, ride height, and tires it started that course with. • Vehicles cannot be exchanged for another vehicle during the competition. • Drivers may make changes to wheelbase, track width, ride height, and tires between course runs.



I don't even see where it says you can only run 1 rig. Please point that out 4 me.

[Stick King]

Thats cool with me if we can run as many rigs as we want to run, pick one as the points rig for the day and have a second as back up. also getting to run the rigs we own and keeping score for them is what I'm wanting. not so much entering multiple rigs for an unfair advantage. yes i have had an issue or two with my rigs but one was my b.s battery strap and the other was snapped half shaft. what can i say, i need to wrench n test my rigs more. i don't take as much time as needed, i know. i usually have only one 2.2 with me thats rtr if I'm lucky but thats not the point I'm trying to make. i like to see everyone that has rigs, run them. i do see your point as far as concentrating on one rig, making it the best you can. i really do. i also see your point with the rules, if any of us are lucky enough to make nats. i am not concerned with nats but i am sure some of us are. i just want to run all that i have, keep points to know my progress and kick it with you guys. i understand rules are made to be followed but i usually end up breaking or bending @ least one here n there. BTW. whats the max height for 2.2 comp tires? is it 6 in? gotta ask because i have a set i modded for the comp and i think i stayed within the guidelines. checking to make sure. peace out. kinger

[bustedcrawler]

Originally Posted by Crawln Coles

Vehicle Requirements Class 1 - Super Crawler Class: • No limits on wheelbase, vehicle track width or height. • No limits on tire type or size. • Limited to 4-wheeled vehicles only. • No limits to steering configuration. • You must run a body (full tube chassis is acceptable). • The body must be 1/10th scale or larger. • The body can be cut/modified but must retain 70% of its original form, but the width of the cab must be the factory width. • Body should resemble its original form (jeep bodies look like a jeeps) Class 2 – Class 2.2: If a Class 2 vehicle violates any of the following requirements it must run in Class 1. • Vehicle wheelbase is a maximum 12.5 inches. • Vehicle track width is a maximum 12.5 inches. • Limited to 2.2 inch wheels or smaller. • Limited to 4-wheeled vehicles only. • Vehicles are limited to 2-wheel steering only. • You must run a body (full tube chassis is acceptable). • The body must be 1/10th scale or larger. • The body can be cut/modified but must retain 70% of its original form, but the width of the cab must be the factory width. • Body should resemble its original form (jeep bodies look like a jeeps) Class 3 – Unlimited Class: • No limits of any kind. • No limits on bodies. • No limits on wheelbase, vehicle track width or height. • No limits to steering configuration. General Event Rules & Event Management • RCC recognizes some events/clubs may need some local rules to accommodate there terrain and group size. Please post these exceptions in event notifications. • Lowest total score wins. • Scoring starts as the vehicle brakes the plane of the first gate of a stage. Scoring stops when the Vehicle breaks the plane of the last gate of a stage. • No pre-running the courses. Drivers that pre-run a course/stage will receive a DNF for that stage. • Starting order will be a random draw for the first course. The running order of subsequent courses will be run with the first place driver driving first, and the next lowest driving next, and so on. • Winching or ramping of any kind is not allowed. • You cannot run the same vehicle in more than one class. • The vehicle must finish a course in the same wheelbase, track width, ride height, and tires it started that course with. • Vehicles cannot be exchanged for another vehicle during the competition. • Drivers may make changes to wheelbase, track width, ride height, and tires between course runs.



I don't even see where it says you can only run 1 rig. Please point that out 4 me.

I can't find the thread where this was discussed, and I might have had a prior copy of the rules when I noticed this. I do know that the pre-running part of the rules was brought up during this topic of how to handle more than 1 rig per driver per class. My mistake, and I apologize. However, the rules dictate no swapping rigs, so we will run as normal, i.e. run as many as you want.

Once again, I want to say for the record, that this was something brought up to be discussed and talked about at the up coming comp. This has been blown so far out of proportion it is rather hard to wrap my head around it.

[bustedcrawler]

Originally Posted by StIcK kInG

Thats cool with me if we can run as many rigs as we want to run, pick one as the points rig for the day and have a second as back up. also getting to run the rigs we own and keeping score for them is what I'm wanting. not so much entering multiple rigs for an unfair advantage. yes i have had an issue or two with my rigs but one was my b.s battery strap and the other was snapped half shaft. what can i say, i need to wrench n test my rigs more. i don't take as much time as needed, i know. i usually have only one 2.2 with me thats rtr if I'm lucky but thats not the point I'm trying to make. i like to see everyone that has rigs, run them. i do see your point as far as concentrating on one rig, making it the best you can. i really do. i also see your point with the rules, if any of us are lucky enough to make nats. i am not concerned with nats but i am sure some of us are. i just want to run all that i have, keep points to know my progress and kick it with you guys. i understand rules are made to be followed but i usually end up breaking or bending @ least one here n there. BTW. whats the max height for 2.2 comp tires? is it 6 in? gotta ask because i have a set i modded for the comp and i think i stayed within the guidelines. checking to make sure. peace out. kinger

Like I said earlier, I am not trying to personally bust anyone's balls. I know things happen, and rigs don't cooperate. I know some people want more than one rig to run. I can see all sides, and we can find a middle ground here. I just want everyone to have a fair shot at competing. No one feels there is an unfair advantage, and that everyone is serious, for at least 1 rig, about competing for the win. After that , it doesn't matter much but we all need to be fair.

As said before, this was something mentioned in passing as something to bring up at the comp. It was taken out of context and then super-sized out of proportion. Plan on bringing as many rigs as you can afford to compete with on the 15th.

Edit: Total Uncompressed height to not exceed 6"

[mascman]

Wow, that was a lot of reading for me to catch up on!

What is hard to understand on this issue?

If we are counting points, how can you get scored on multiple rigs? It just won't work.

The rule should state that one rig per comp is the points pig. It doesn't have to be the same truck at every comp because we are always modifying them anyway.

This pig should be the one you run first and counts for the series points.

You then run your other trucks in the comp, but the points don't count for the series...only bragging rights for that comp.

Sound fair and simple to follow?

I don't see the need to attack Busted for trying to get the club on track with rules that were made up before some of us even had a crawler.

I support him as our "Rules Nazi" and think he is definitely the right person for the job. I think everyone realizes this...that's why we voted him in.

You follow the rules for the sport you play, right? You may play touch football instead of tackle, but you still follow the same basic rules...otherwise you are just throwing the football around.

That is the difference between Comps and GTGs. One follows rules and the other is just pissing around.

[Rckcrwlr]

Holy Sheat,
Doesn't anyone pick up a phone? That was a lot of reading. My eyes are crossed.

If you go back to my first announcement of this, I stated that you can run as many rigs as you can but the first one has to be counted towards the points.

I started this club to elevate our use of the rigs that we were all just driving around our back yards. We discussed the points race and national recognition. I think it would be great to have four representatives of W.Pa.C. go to the Nationals next year.

If you just want to run...then state that at the comp. We will place you at the end and you can run as many times as you want.

The club will be National recognized and will follow those rules for the sake of those who want to comp. If you do not want to then we still want you part of the club.

This is all about fun, and obviously there is a lot of passion.

The club offers many things:

A fair competition
Great people doing something they enjoy
GTG

Make it what you want...we are creating it to the best of our ability.

Anyone want to discuss more...You know how to get hold of me.

Now this is ended and lets get back to the July 15th Subject that this started out as.

John

[Racer4Life]

If someone could go back a page and check my post. I did have a few questions.

Its good to see the discussion about the issue. Its also good to see that you can work to make things better. Keep in mind we are running toy cars!! LOL!!

See you on the 15th...if someone can give me the directions!

tOM