2016-2017 rules and new ideas discussion

[Solitaire]

Originally Posted by Erik D_lux

...You dont really need much more skills or equipment to build an MT set of axles than you do to build XR axles. Its all pretty much bolt on stuff with maybe an exception of using a dremel to clearance something here or there.

The MT actually has TONS of parts support since lots of Berg parts transfer right over. Example... my Berg axle tubes fit on MT cases, Berg gears can be made to fit into MT cases, Berg shafts can fit, with my tubes after market chubs can fit making it fit aftermarket knuckles. What else could you need at that point?...

I think the entry level guys are actually afraid of Berg stuff. I know I was and still am.

Gears that cost a fortune, hard to find, and cases/tubes that aren't available unless you go aftermarket. Again, for a big cost.

What we need for the new guys is a cheaper, robust and readily available option. MT stuff doesn't fit two of the aforementioned 3 criteria.

[Erik D_lux]

Originally Posted by Dezertdirt

Dlux you don't need to make it rtr, an unassembled kit would be fine. Don't include tires or electronics because there are so many options and people have different preferences. Could you do aluminum links, plastic tend to brake. A delrin or g10 chassis is a good idea. Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing those new rtr axles that are $425.

Great feedback! Thanks. I am going to get to work and hopefully come up with something. Because its something I need help on and understanding what new people want/need, I will bring it up for discussion before bringing to market. Hopefully its only 6weeks or so away.

Originally Posted by Solitaire

I think the entry level guys are actually afraid of Berg stuff. I know I was and still am.

Yeah, being afraid of Berg stuff or crawling in general is a HUGE problem.

I see this as two fold:

First, we could do all that we can to make the information as accessible as possible. Its out there right now for sure, its just hard to get to instantly and easily. My idea was to make a guide that has all the info in it. Read it once (or maybe a couple of times) and you should have a good basis. At least all the info would be in one spot and you would not have to search.

Here is a "guide" I made. Problem is that all it ever turned into was just a single post that got lost in the forum because nobody ever searched for it and I dont have any control to make it a sticky. This could be a living thread that could be updated on a regular basis and be a easier way to be informed on how the different types of cars work.

I am new to crawling, where can I find parts?

The second part of this is that there is a responsibility, no matter how hard to do some searching and figuring for yourself. I cant tell you how many new people come to me with the most basic questions (what foam, what tire, what shock oil) without ever searching for themselves. I have been involved in several different hobbies and interests outside of crawling in the last couple of years and after those couple of years, I am still learning a lot about them. Its on going. Lots of hobbies, dare I say most involved hobbies are this way.

So, IMHO, I say there is a responsibility to make it as easy as possible but at the same time, there needs to be some push back to put some effort in and learn the hobby yourself. It all goes back to quality over quantity. We could probably bring some people in by just handing them a RTR but my guess is that they will be the first people to become uninterested and leave the hobby or be the ones who complain about this and that. The quality guys in this hobby will search for answers, build their own car and learn how to drive them.

Originally Posted by Solitaire

Gears that cost a fortune, hard to find, and cases/tubes that aren't available unless you go aftermarket. Again, for a big cost.

Sorry, I dont agree with most of this. $110 for bulletproof gears, on my website (spread the word LOL). Tubes and cases can be found in many forms. Stock to aftermarket. I think they are reasonably priced and they are about to come way down too.

Originally Posted by Solitaire

What we need for the new guys is a cheaper, robust and readily available option. MT stuff doesn't fit two of the aforementioned 3 criteria.

Which 2 doesnt it fit?

They are cheap, for sure. They are robust (especially vs cost). If something does break, you can upgrade it and they are readily available.

[chevotafun]

All of what is being said are great points.

But as Chris (Cboggs) said if we don't promote the hobby at our LHS NO ONE will know about the crawling world.

IMHO this falls on John Holmes the man in charge, and all of the clubs. if he isn't going to do any promoting of worlds or qualifiers, neither of these will ever take off and will never see the numbers we once did.
Qualifier's need to be promoted and something given to the winner to make it worth your time to attend.

AGAIN HOW DO WE GO ABOUT HOLDING A QUALIFIER?
IMO there should be a section just for people to discuss Qualifier's and where they will be held.

For the last 3 years we have made up a 11x17 poster and go hang it in all the LHS, Since we started doing this we have seen more interest in the hobby, even if it just someone wanting to come watch what it is all about.
Most people we talk to that come out that are new we ask how they heard of us, and most say the poster, then go on to say I never even knew there were RC comps.

[Solitaire]

Originally Posted by Erik D_lux

Sorry, I dont agree with most of this. $110 for bulletproof gears, on my website (spread the word LOL). Tubes and cases can be found in many forms. Stock to aftermarket. I think they are reasonably priced and they are about to come way down too.

Well, you just proved my point.
$110 for Berg gears
$50 for RC4WD XR gears
$50 for Bully 2 gears

Originally Posted by Erik D_lux

Which 2 doesnt it fit?

They are cheap, for sure. They are robust (especially vs cost). If something does break, you can upgrade it and they are readily available.

Cheap is the only thing going for these. I don't consider plastic gears robust in anybody's book. The fact that the conglomerate of HobbyPartz/Raidentech/NitroRCX/Xheli etc have the worst "in stock" ratio of any RC supplier makes these not as readily available as one would think. And there's only one place in the world to get MT parts.

I still stick by my statement about the need for reasonable, robust and readily available gears for the newcomers to build upon.

[Erik D_lux]

Originally Posted by Solitaire

Well, you just proved my point.
$110 for Berg gears
$50 for RC4WD XR gears
$50 for Bully 2 gears

$110 was for both front and rear on the Berg. Looks like the prices you quoted were just for one axle on both the XR and B2? So prices are pretty much the same give or take $10 or so?

Originally Posted by Solitaire

Cheap is the only thing going for these. I don't consider plastic gears robust in anybody's book. The fact that the conglomerate of HobbyPartz/Raidentech/NitroRCX/Xheli etc have the worst "in stock" ratio of any RC supplier makes these not as readily available as one would think. And there's only one place in the world to get MT parts.

I still stick by my statement about the need for reasonable, robust and readily available gears for the newcomers to build upon.

I am not 100% positive of what comes in the MT cases but you can buy metal gears for the gear boxes for $5 or $10 for both axles. I thought the MT came with metal gears though. From their website, they are not so clear

"Heavy duty special harden metal ring and pinion gears, axles and axle shafts"

I am running the MT gear boxes with the MT metal gears front and plastic rear along with MT small gears except for the Berg 3rd in the front. This is a car I built for my kdis. I have not had a problem with either end of the car but it does not get driven a lot or crazy hard.

Kids build

I will trust you on the supply issue. I have never had a problem personally. They have always had parts in stock every time I go there but I would guess they do go out of stock as most people can.

To each their own I suppose. I dont understand the push back on the MT but its pretty apparent that nobody wants nor likes the idea.

[666]

Wow! Someone nailed it!!

There used to be alot of fun in comp crawling!

Lets bring it back!

[EeePee]

Originally Posted by 666

Wow! Someone nailed it!!

Who?

[Solitaire]

Erik, my error on your gear quote at $110. I thought it was for a single set, so those are basically inline with the competition.

I looked into those MT axles and gears when you first posted up about them a few months back. I was considering building a Mini Super after MRCrackhead did such a neat job on his. Anywho, the parts were reasonable...about $20 or so, but those fools wanted $32 to ship 'em. I hate getting raped on shipping and lost interest quickly.

You know, if you have all this stuff available from your site, you should really get it all organized and posted up so people can see what's available.

[Erik D_lux]

I am not sure what they do for shipping international. My shipping on somewhat larger items will be approaching $32 too though.... USPS just raised their rates.

For domestic folks, you can get the "spare parts" option for $10 shipping, which obviously isnt too bad.

If I have all what stuff available? If youre talking about the MT parts, that ship has sailed. I had them all on there for a long time, maybe a couple of years? People were always so negative about the MT axles that I coudlnt sell any of their parts. Heck, I even offered them to the B2 crowd. I thought it would have been a killer deal to get a rear MT axle and reap the rewards of better motor placement and a loss of about 5.5oz in the rear axle all for about $20 more than a stock axle cost.

Rear axle option

[Del Monte]

I've been traveling the last few days, so I'm a little late to this thread.

Would a more limited 2.2s class help the situation? I would interested in working with vendors here to build a capable 2.2s if there was interest in it. It wouldn't have to be a spec class, just a reasonably well built rig that could drive in the current class.

I'm not sure that letting "Pro" drivers drive in 2.2s is good for the growth of that class either. It seems like a good entry level 2.2s class would be a starting point for drivers who don't want to spend a ton of money on a 2.2p truck. I have no idea how to make the distinction between "pro" and entry level drivers though.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Del Monte

I've been traveling the last few days, so I'm a little late to this thread.

Would a more limited 2.2s class help the situation? I would interested in working with vendors here to build a capable 2.2s if there was interest in it. It wouldn't have to be a spec class, just a reasonably well built rig that could drive in the current class.

I'm not sure that letting "Pro" drivers drive in 2.2s is good for the growth of that class either. It seems like a good entry level 2.2s class would be a starting point for drivers who don't want to spend a ton of money on a 2.2p truck. I have no idea how to make the distinction between "pro" and entry level drivers though.

Im with you on the all of this ........ my heart thought the class was gonna be a big help 4 years ago.

Even just putting restrictions on things that drive cost down could help.

Instead of CF chassis' you could limit it to G10, that could drop the price in half and the driver could still get current designs. Heck even a minimum weight in the class of 5#'s could turn the page for new drivers thinking they need all this feather weight stuff.

And yes ..... A No Drive List would have to be a must.

You say when and Im with anyone on working something up.

[Curcal]

The No Drive list argument sounds a lot like, "we wont get new people unless they have a chance to win..."

but that's just my reaction to that (I dont drive sport class), in comparison to most people here I'm still new. My comp wins (or lack there of) are not what has kept me around.

[Erik D_lux]

The 2.2s class being a beginner class might work on a local level. You would kill the entire class on a national level though since its probably 99% veteran driven.

If you only allow 2.2s class to be beginner on a local level, that will probably kill the class on a national level....

Sounds good to me though. Lets just do Supers on Friday and Sundays!

[RcBro]

I think its pretty easy.. Look at what ROAR does.. Pro Shafty and Pro Sportsmans.

There sportsmans rules are rather simple. If running sportsman you cannot run any other event class.
Additionally, for each event you attend, both local and national you receive points based on placement within said series. Once you hit a certain amount you bump out of sportsman. This would require a more sophisticated and working website, but very doable.

The class should hold the same rules, the quicker your success the faster you bump out. How a novice builds his rig is up to his research and pocket book. You will always see both sides of the spectrum of an entry level rig. One 100% comp worthy, and one budget sensitive. It doesn't mean they can't compete.

If these rules were adopted the seasoned sand baggers will be dealt with case by case

I do agree on making parts available to the public, but I also think that is a discussion for another thread. Lets focus on what the series should do, not the vendors here.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Curcal

The No Drive list argument sounds a lot like, "we wont get new people unless they have a chance to win..."

but that's just my reaction to that (I dont drive sport class), in comparison to most people here I'm still new. My comp wins (or lack there of) are not what has kept me around.

You win a worlds - you get on list
Could even be place in the top 3 of a worlds gets you on the list

You win any big title event like you see here, ECC ... NENC ... Battle Grounds ... etc - you get on the list.


Its the intimidation of going up against drivers of Jakes caliber or even Austin back in the day. Guys that have been driving for years and travel with wins to their name.

Its not to punish those drivers either but to help the spirit of a class. Its helped other forms of RC events ..... have to try/start some where

[chevotafun]

Yes I agree, if 2.2S was a beginner class and no pro drivers allowed at local event it would kill it at a national event, if I couldn't drive mine at each event I would probably sale it. Don't like keeping self queens around.

Why not just run 2 classes Pro and Novice?

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Erik D_lux

The 2.2s class being a beginner class might work on a local level. You would kill the entire class on a national level though since its probably 99% veteran driven.

If you only allow 2.2s class to be beginner on a local level, that will probably kill the class on a national level....

Sounds good to me though. Lets just do Supers on Friday and Sundays!

Why would it kill it on a National level?

Even at a Worlds you can run the two levels of the class ..... they both have the same trucks and run the same courses and judged the same way.

Driver chooses do I want to compete for a win against a 3 time National Champion or do I want to compete against people who I feel are similar skill level? And if they won then they get added to the no drive list and have to compete with the national level drivers.

[chevotafun]

If there was a Pro class and a starter/Novice class would work
But I hate to beat the dead horse, but most people say if I can't win the big prize why try.

Which is sh-tty that people think that way, I love a good challenge.

[Erik D_lux]

Stubs179 had the best idea for rookies vs veterans. Its terribly easy and simple too.

Let them all run together but when the scores come out, separate them into as many groups as needed so everybody wins.

Say you had 21 drivers, you could put them into as many classes as you want. Say you want everybody to podium, put up 7 different classes.

It sounds silly but I did this at some of the 801 events and it went very, very well. I didnt do the rookie vs. veterans thing but instead I did different since we had a run what you brung class so I was able to do 1.9's, 2.2's, Wraiths, sportsman, driveshaft, MOA, 6x6 etc,. etc,. I pretty much made it so everybody won one of the classes.

Participation trophies/1st on the spreadsheet, its what we want these days!

[Erik D_lux]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Why would it kill it on a National level?

Its assuming no pros could run on the local level. As Chevota said above, if you cant run on the local level, why keep the car just for national level events.

If you let the pros run on the local level, thats a better idea for sure.