Scoring question

[warfish]

If you clear a gate and then later in that run the course has you close to the old gate and you hit it, do you incur points?

[Greatscott]

All gates are live throughout the running of the course. When you hit a gate marker, you get to points for it and that gate is dead for the rest of that run...

Example:
You clear gate 1, 2, 3, & 4. During your attempt at gate 5, you roll your rig and hit one of the markers for gate 1, you get 10 points and that marker becomes dead (no other points received for hitting that particular gate marker)

[MG200]

Yes they are all live during your run even after you clear them. Now if you knock one over by a rock or debri spit out from a tire than it shouldn't be deducted. I've had this happen a few times because of the crazy wheel speed on my class 3.

[Grizzly4x4]

moving this to the rules section.

[Hardline]

Another version of the same question: You clear a gate and later accidently come back and straddle it -- no touch. I've seen "penalty" and "no-penalty" calls on this forum. Some have said you can only take a straddle penalty on a gate you're attempting to progress.

This doesn't seem to say that:

6.8 -

Straddle:

A gate is considered straddled if at any time the axle of a vehicle (facing in any direction) passes over
any part of a gate marker and both tires of that axle are touching the ground (or any object on the ground) on opposite

sides of the gate markers, it is considered a straddle and a Gate Marker penalty is assessed

[EvilTwin v2]

Yep. That's a gate penalty.

Originally Posted by Hardline

Another version of the same question: You clear a gate and later accidently come back and straddle it -- no touch. I've seen "penalty" and "no-penalty" calls on this forum. Some have said you can only take a straddle penalty on a gate you're attempting to progress.

This doesn't seem to say that:

6.8 -

Straddle:

A gate is considered straddled if at any time the axle of a vehicle (facing in any direction) passes over

any part of a gate marker and both tires of that axle are touching the ground (or any object on the ground) on opposite

sides of the gate markers, it is considered a straddle and a Gate Marker penalty is assessed

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by EvilTwin v2

Yep. That's a gate penalty.

You sure? I thought a straddle could only happen while attempting to progress the gate....

[EvilTwin v2]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

You sure? I thought a straddle could only happen while attempting to progress the gate....

The key words to me in that rule are "at any time". It doesn't say only when progressing the gate.

Maybe this needs addressed in the rules committee. I wasn't in the committee for the discussion of the rule, so I'm not sure the intent. I'm just going by the words "at any time".

6.8 -
Straddle:
A gate is considered straddled if at any time the axle of a vehicle (facing in any direction) passes over
any part of a gate marker and both tires of that axle are touching the ground (or any object on the ground) on opposite

sides of the gate markers, it is considered a straddle and a Gate Marker penalty is assessed

[JeremyH]

Yeah, I understand that....however, IMO, it has more to do with how a gate is progressed than how a gate penalty is awarded. A straddle is only awarded once the gate is progressed (if you straddle and back out, the penalty is not awarded until you actually progress)...so I dont see how a straddle can be awarded on a gate that has already been progressed.

On a similar note, multiple times I have seen no penalty awarded on a gate that has already been progressed and a driver took a tumble down sideways across the progressed gate (flipping over both gates, with the front axle in front of and the rear axle behind the gates), but never actually touched one of the gate markers...

[EvilTwin v2]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

Yeah, I understand that....however, IMO, it has more to do with how a gate is progressed than how a gate penalty is awarded. A straddle is only awarded once the gate is progressed (if you straddle and back out, the penalty is not awarded until you actually progress)...so I dont see how a straddle can be awarded on a gate that has already been progressed.

On a similar note, multiple times I have seen no penalty awarded on a gate that has already been progressed and a driver took a tumble down sideways across the progressed gate (flipping over both gates, with the front axle in front of and the rear axle behind the gates), but never actually touched one of the gate markers...

Sounds like some confusion over a float vs a straddle. A straddle penalty is awarded as soon as the axle passes over any part of the gate marker with both tires of that axle on the ground, where a float is only when the gate is progressed. The reason for that is the part of the rule that describes progress without penalty occurs only when all 4 tires pass between the gates.

I think people have either been calling it wrong, or they're using the wrong terminology.

[ManxCrawler]

Originally Posted by Greatscott

All gates are live throughout the running of the course. When you hit a gate marker, you get to points for it and that gate is dead for the rest of that run...

Example:
You clear gate 1, 2, 3, & 4. During your attempt at gate 5, you roll your rig and hit one of the markers for gate 1, you get 10 points and that marker becomes dead (no other points received for hitting that particular gate marker)

Wouldn't that be 15 points?

5 for the rollover + 10 for the gate marker

[EvilTwin v2]

Originally Posted by ManxCrawler

Wouldn't that be 15 points?

5 for the rollover + 10 for the gate marker

5 points for a rollover is only if you have to grab the truck and roll it over by hand. We are referring to a truck rolling on it's own over top of a gate. There is no imaginary plane, so as long as the gate wasn't touched or progress wasn't awarded at the time (from all 4 tires not cleanly passing between the gate markers), then there is no gate penalty.

[ManxCrawler]

Thanks, that's actually been a really helpful reply

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by EvilTwin v2

Sounds like some confusion over a float vs a straddle.

No, I am familiar with the difference in terminology. "Straddle" is the first part of my post, "float" would be closest term to the second.

I would still like some clarification on this.....as I have seen both of these penalties overlooked at local and larger events.

[Hardline]

On a related note, when some people say yes and some say no, I should probably listen more to members of the rules committee. But I don't know who's who. Is there a posted list?

[Hardline]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

A straddle is only awarded once the gate is progressed (if you straddle and back out, the penalty is not awarded until you actually progress

That's incorrect, right? The straddle penalty applies to "any time" not after progress. No back-outs.

[EvilTwin v2]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

No, I am familiar with the difference in terminology. "Straddle" is the first part of my post, "float" would be closest term to the second.

I would still like some clarification on this.....as I have seen both of these penalties overlooked at local and larger events.

It's my interpretation, and I've been told by other members of the committee that the straddled is called as soon as it occurs. There is no backing out of a straddle. The float is where you can actually back out and attempt again cleanly without penalty.

I can't remember if this came up at ECC or maybe Motorama in the drivers or judges meetings, but I'm almost positive that it was addressed there.

[EvilTwin v2]

Originally Posted by Hardline

On a related note, when some people say yes and some say no, I should probably listen more to members of the rules committee. But I don't know who's who. Is there a posted list?

Here's a link to where you can see moderators, rules committee members, etc. RCCrawler.com Bulletin Board - Show Groups

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by Hardline

That's incorrect, right? The straddle penalty applies to "any time" not after progress. No back-outs.

I didnt say that you could back out of it and wave the penalty.....what I said was that the penalty wasnt awarded until you made progress.

My justification of that comes from this rule:
▪ 7.2.6 If one wheel from the front axle and one wheel from the rear axle passes between two gate markers
(vehicle straddles a gate), that gate is considered a cleared gate. This however will result in a Gate Marker penalty
of 10 points and a gate progress bonus is awarded.

Notice, they are awarded at the same time...

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by Hardline

On a related note, when some people say yes and some say no, I should probably listen more to members of the rules committee. But I don't know who's who. Is there a posted list?

Yes, however it is at the course judge's discretion....