2013 Rules

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by WAM

No one (except Olle) is addressing the 7.2.1 wording that says while only two wheels are required for progress, it's not awarded until all FOUR wheels have cleared the gate. The car which timed out in the finish gate never got four wheels clear of the gate. This has nothing to do with whether it was two or four wheels through the markers. It has to do with not awarding progress.

If you don't mean for this to be true then strike 7.2.1.


BTW, the word "clear" is causing confusion. As written it means PAST the gate, not THRU the gate in 7.2.1.

Spot on!

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

In this example and most other situations where the other 2x tire is irrelevant.

Sorry, but I disagree.

[ROWDY RACING]

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

I agree its not an obvious situation, but I disagree its going to create 'a lot of arguments". I have only seen the situation twice in my years of crawling.

Once you noodle through the situation and clear the clutter its very simple situation.

Break it down to the basics

Before the clock ran out the driver got 2x tires through for progress, but did not get all tire though. Progress + 10 point penalty.

In this example and most other situations where the other 2x tire is irrelevant.

See post 199

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by WAM

No one (except Olle) is addressing the 7.2.1 wording that says while only two wheels are required for progress, it's not awarded until all FOUR wheels have cleared the gate. The car which timed out in the finish gate never got four wheels clear of the gate. This has nothing to do with whether it was two or four wheels through the markers. It has to do with not awarding progress.

If you don't mean for this to be true then strike 7.2.1.


BTW, the word "clear" is causing confusion. As written it means PAST the gate, not THRU the gate in 7.2.1.

Good catch...that should have been adjusted long ago.

Section 7 is suppose to help...

SECTION 7: Penalty Examples and Additional Penalty Definitions
The examples and definitions used in this section are intended to help explain rules in previous sections not override them.

...not contradict or override.

I will make the necessary edit.

[Hoppa]

7.2.1 is the way i've always called it.
Should keep the Marshall 's busy.

[WAM]

And the offending words are gone. Quick work.

[ROWDY RACING]

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Good catch...that should have been adjusted long ago.

Section 7 is suppose to help...

SECTION 7: Penalty Examples and Additional Penalty Definitions
The examples and definitions used in this section are intended to help explain rules in previous sections not override them.

...not contradict or override.

I will make the necessary edit.

I disagree with this.

[JeremyH]

We still have this:
▪ 7.2.7 If one wheel only from the front axle or one wheel only from the rear axle passes between two gate
markers that gate is not considered a cleared gate.

[ROWDY RACING]

Fish I think the RC needs to address this. I think these guys are making valid points to your arguement about this ruling.

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by WAM

And the offending words are gone. Quick work.

Originally Posted by ROWDY RACING

I disagree with this.

Not trying to jack anyone around, but we often find flaws in the rules...that need tweaking. Sometimes those attempts to tweak create other flaws.

At the top of section 7 it clearly says its not suppose to contradict or override the other rules, and clearly it does in 7.2.1. wording.

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by ROWDY RACING

Fish I think the RC needs to address this. I think these guys are making valid points to your arguement about this ruling.

No problem.
Under committe review
Test question is adjusted until review is done

[Erik D_lux]

Thanks for the clarification on the other question. Makes sense.

Just to help me understand correctly, in the question where gate 7 is question in progress, if he would have not hit the gate but just rather sat there with 3 tires progressed until time ran out, then he would have been awarded progress? Seems like if youre going to let the gate 10 situation ride, you may as well say the situation on gate 7 is progress since he could have taken his 40 points or the 10 for the last gate?

Good questions on the 2013 test! A couple of them made me think.

[The Violator]

It really seems to be diluting the rules. When someone takes a gate they get 2 wheels through the gates, the other 2 naturally clear them. So progress is achieved once car is clear, 2 wheels or 4. To me a car hung up like the picture never cleared the gates, never hit a gate, and to give them not only progress for not clearing them, and a gate when none was hit is backwards. I can clearly see the arguments with this one. Either a gate is clear or it is not. I can see many arguments on this one.

[Olle P]

Not to mention that driving clean diagonally through a gate should thus always result in "progress with penalty" because one of the rear wheels isn't past the gate when progress (the other rear wheel through) is called?

In the "Gate 10" example I see another option for the driver:
When the car gets stuck he can just lift it by hand and carry it across the finish line to clear the gate and stop the clock. Call rule 1.7.2 and take a 20 point penalty instead of DNF!

I think the rules as written are fine! (At least regarding this particular issue.)
To get progress it takes that one wheel from each axle is through the gate AND all four wheels are past the gate.
The bonus points are (by rule 1.10) given AFTER any penalties, and (lack of) penalties can obviously not be decided until all four wheels are past the gate.

If rule 7.2.1 is to be practically discarded the rule 1.10 has to be rewritten allowing the bonus points to be awarded before the vehicle is past the gate and penalties decided.

[JeremyH]

Most major comps in this country do not use the optional 20 point bypass rule. Drive the course.

[The Violator]

Originally Posted by Olle P

e another option for the driver:
When the car gets stuck he can just lift it by hand and carry it across the finish line to clear the gate and stop the clock. Call rule 7.2.2 and take a 20 point penalty instead of DNF.

As soon as you touch the car is would be a reposition back to the last gate.

[boosted4lyf]

Here's one I ran into today at our local comp, I was judging and this course had 4-5 bonus lines AFTER the finish, the driver progressed gate 9 and headed to the finish. He had 10-12 sec on clock and I was counting him down. The finish was on a +/- 70 deg climb the driver was crouched over in the driving position as most of us do. He headed through finsh, progressed, and stood up( straightens up, dropped radio to side) as soon as he progressed I stopped clock with 3sec left the truck then tumbled down and landed on drivers foot. I haven't been in a situation like that before, and with spectators watching and raising a fuss, the driver told me to give him the 10 PTs as he was unsure too. I assumed that he was done, spectators said he should have stated he was done. He knew the countdown, and came to a relaxing position after the finish. I know judges call stand untill Marshall gets involved, but just wondering if I was wrong to assume he was finished.

[ROCKEDUP RICKY]

Originally Posted by boosted4lyf

Here's one I ran into today at our local comp, I was judging and this course had 4-5 bonus lines AFTER the finish, the driver progressed gate 9 and headed to the finish. He had 10-12 sec on clock and I was counting him down. The finish was on a +/- 70 deg climb the driver was crouched over in the driving position as most of us do. He headed through finsh, progressed, and stood up( straightens up, dropped radio to side) as soon as he progressed I stopped clock with 3sec left the truck then tumbled down and landed on drivers foot. I haven't been in a situation like that before, and with spectators watching and raising a fuss, the driver told me to give him the 10 PTs as he was unsure too. I assumed that he was done, spectators said he should have stated he was done. He knew the countdown, and came to a relaxing position after the finish. I know judges call stand untill Marshall gets involved, but just wondering if I was wrong to assume he was finished.

If that was the finish. Then he was done, no penalty. Once you cross the line the penaltys stop. And don't let spectators make your call or the driver.

[boosted4lyf]

I wasn't going to, the driver should have finished with a -3. But insisted I give him the +10 to keep the crybabies satisfied as it was our small monthly comp. I am going to inform the our club reps of the score issue and have it resolved it has been bugging me since.


* edit I believe the confusion was, if He intended to head to the bonus gates. But we both clearly knew what his time was.

[JeremyH]

No penalty. Most post finish gate bonuses typically say when you get a penalty, your opportunity is over, but don't apply the penalty....but really that's up to the course builder. However, I wouldn't have given him a touch penalty.

Tell those people to quit crying!