2013 Rules

[Erik D_lux]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

I believe he is asking about where he needs to reverse his truck to to begin moving forward again.... in order to get progress with no gate penalty

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

By rule he doesn't have to back up any where. He could pop wheelie then pivot to get both tires between the gates. It doesn't matter how he get there as long as he doesn't touch the gates. If he needs to back up a certain distance to safely maneuver around the gate thats his call not the rules.

I added to JeremyH's quote above.

If you straddle a gate (with the front axle only) then reverse in order to get progress with no gate penalty, it needs to be defined as to where you have to reverse to, in order to get progress with no gate penalty.

I believe you already answered this. It is "C".



1.10 - Progress bonus
Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate and all four tires are past the gate

"Between" the gates and "entire tire passes completely through the gate" are 2 totally different ideas.

[Erik D_lux]

Originally Posted by jacobflyin

That's what I was thinking I am sure taller then the standard axial gates will be the new thing.

Man, they sure would be sweet in some spots come to think of it.

I have had about all I can handle with the hard to judge "jumping gates".

The more I think about the no straddle rule, the more I really like it. It adds a whole new dimension to driving and course building

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by Erik D_lux

1.10 - Progress bonus
Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate and all four tires are past the gate

"Between" the gates and "entire tire passes completely through the gate" are 2 totally different ideas.

There you go the answer to your question is already completely in the rules. In the future I will just post the rule, and leave out my attempt at an simplified explanation.

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

By rule he doesn't have to back up any where. He could pop wheelie then pivot to get both tires between the gates. It doesn't matter how he get there as long as he doesn't touch the gates. If he needs to back up a certain distance to safely maneuver around the gate thats his call not the rules.

What? He is asking about where his truck needs to be for his "straddle" to be considered "corrected" before attempting progress.

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

In the future I will just post the rule, and leave out my attempt at an simplified explanation.

Why would you even say something like that?!? OBVIOUSLY if there is a question about a rule, then just reposting the rule is NOT going to answer the question. If someone has a question, you, as the leader of the rules committee, or any other member of the RC, should do your best to answer that question.

This type of action is one of the things that people were talking about in one of those "other" threads....

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

Why would you even say something like that?!? OBVIOUSLY if there is a question about a rule, then just reposting the rule is NOT going to answer the question. If someone has a question, you, as the leader of the rules committee, or any other member of the RC, should do your best to answer that question.

Your right and I try to answer everyone questions the best way I know how, but that doesn't seem good enough in this situation. Its hard to try give a simplified answer, and then have the original rules wording used in rebuttal by the original person asking the question. Makes me think giving the rule out would be more effective since that's what ended being used in the end to answer his own question. Erik even said at one point my simplified wording is what was confusing him.

Sorry for the confusion

[jacobflyin]

Fish, It seemed to me you came off short and angry that the question was asked and your responses made it seem that way. It is hard to to make people understand in text what you are feeling and how you are saying things.

Please don't give up and just post rules. If I did that at my business I would not have anymore customers if they asked me how much my labor rate is and I just pointed to te sign that person would never come back.

I think by removing the word straddle I believe it will simpify things for sure, but the comp guys are so used to these rules and sayings that it might take us a bit to understand the meaning.

I thought Erik's question was a good one and now when I judge no one can pull a fast one on me when the straddle a gate reverse to we're the front tires are in line with the gate and try to say clean progress when then need the front tires to be in front of the fartest most edge if the gate to enter it clean.

I hope that make sense. You are In The position to deal with these things and I don't think anyone is trying to make it harder, Just better I think this and Krawls body / bodiless questions are both great and now the new 2013 rules have simplified the rules.

Thank you

[ROCKEDUP RICKY]

Now it's back like it use to be before staddle. Just don't touch the gate.

[articzap]

Originally Posted by ROCKEDUP RICKY

Now it's back like it use to be before staddle. Just don't touch the gate marker.

Fixed.

[krawlfreak]

Originally Posted by Erik D_lux

I added to JeremyH's quote above.

If you straddle a gate (with the front axle only) then reverse in order to get progress with no gate penalty, it needs to be defined as to where you have to reverse to, in order to get progress with no gate penalty.

I believe you already answered this. It is "C".



1.10 - Progress bonus
Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate and all four tires are past the gate

"Between" the gates and "entire tire passes completely through the gate" are 2 totally different ideas.

my issue with trying to clear a gate in the way you are descrbing( straddle the gate and then reverse through the gate) at that instance you would actually be entering the gate in the wrong direction before the gate has been deemed progressed so it would in fact be a penalty, 10 points and repo.

[jacobflyin]

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

my issue with trying to clear a gate in the way you are descrbing( straddle the gate and then reverse through the gate) at that instance you would actually be entering the gate in the wrong direction before the gate has been deemed progressed so it would in fact be a penalty, 10 points and repo.

But you are entering the gate with one tire in the right direction first then reversing. So you have all ready entered the gate going the right way?

Not sure of that thought just asking.

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

my issue with trying to clear a gate in the way you are descrbing( straddle the gate and then reverse through the gate) at that instance you would actually be entering the gate in the wrong direction before the gate has been deemed progressed so it would in fact be a penalty, 10 points and repo.

Wouldn't that happen even by the old rules (straddling and then correcting)?

[krawlfreak]

Originally Posted by jacobflyin

But you are entering the gate with one tire in the right direction first then reversing. So you have all ready entered the gate going the right way?

Not sure of that thought just asking.

this is where i question this.

if you could drive over the gate completely, enough to reverse dig or reposition yourself without hitting the gate, your front tire would have exited the gate. reversing at that point would be re-entering the gate in the wrong direction before the gate has been progressed.

i guess my arguement is "being in" the gate is only when the the tires are in the plane of the front of the gate and the rear of the gate.

to progress the gate cleanly you would enter the gate twice...once with the front tires and ounce with the rear tires.

hope that make sence..

[jacobflyin]

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

this is where i question this.

if you could drive over the gate completely, enough to reverse dig or reposition yourself without hitting the gate, your front tire would have exited the gate. reversing at that point would be re-entering the gate in the wrong direction before the gate has been progressed.

i guess my arguement is "being in" the gate is only when the the tires are in the plane of the front of the gate and the rear of the gate.

to progress the gate cleanly you would enter the gate twice...once with the front tires and ounce with the rear tires.

hope that make sence..

So maybe I don't understand but I have seen people make progress on a gate then take a reverse to back out of the gate because maybe there is a cliff on the other side and they don't want to fall off.

What your saying is because you have not completed progress on the gate because you only got the front axle past when you take the reverse you are entering it backwards. That makes sense to me know I just had to work it through in my head.

But just to clarify if you make full progress through the gate with all 4 tires the gate is cleard and you can drive through it any way you want after that point, but because in the so called straddle you have only the front tires and axles through the gate when you take the reverse you are entering it backwards is that right?

But on the other side I have seen guy trying to clear a gate come to close with the rear tires back all the way out and do it again so would that be the same thing? And be called entering the gate backwards!

Again just trying to clarify what we are all talking about.
I would not see it as entering backwards because the front is going the intended direction.

Sorry so long just trying to get what's in my head in to text.

[krawlfreak]

Originally Posted by jacobflyin

So maybe I don't understand but I have seen people make progress on a gate then take a reverse to back out of the gate because maybe there is a cliff on the other side and they don't want to fall off.

What your saying is because you have not completed progress on the gate because you only got the front axle past when you take the reverse you are entering it backwards. That makes sense to me know I just had to work it through in my head.

correct

But just to clarify if you make full progress through the gate with all 4 tires the gate is cleard and you can drive through it any way you want after that point, but because in the so called straddle you have only the front tires and axles through the gate when you take the reverse you are entering it backwards is that right?
correct

But on the other side I have seen guy trying to clear a gate come to close with the rear tires back all the way out and do it again so would that be the same thing? And be called entering the gate backwards!

with the old rules you could not "straddle" a gate with the axle. now that you would be able to drive over gates basically if you dont touch them then the there is really no other instance that you are in the gate other than when the tires from the front axle or the rear axle are directly in between the planes front and rear of the gate.

i can see an instance if we leave this unchecked that a guy could drive complely over a gate marker( front and rear tires both passing the gate) basically a previously progressed gate via straddle, and then back up through the gates completly and then drive forward through the gates for a clean progress with one reverse.




Again just trying to clarify what we are all talking about.
I would not see it as entering backwards because the front is going the intended direction.

i as well, i dont want to create more issues down the line. i was just thinking about this and it came across my mind..

Sorry so long just trying to get what's in my head in to text.

no worries, just trying to catch all the angles with good discussion so we can make the right decision/ wording on this.

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by jacobflyin

What your saying is because you have not completed progress on the gate because you only got the front axle past when you take the reverse you are entering it backwards. That makes sense to me know I just had to work it through in my head.

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

correct

So, then we arent allowed to make a correction? If one tire passes through a gate, then we are not allowed to reverse?

Originally Posted by jacobflyin

I would not see it as entering backwards because the front is going the intended direction.

I agree.

[jacobflyin]

Great that's what I was hoping. As a judge at some of our local comp I just want to be fully prepared for any thing that happens.

Thank you for your discussion on this.

[hbj069]

[QUOTE=JeremyH;4110380]So, then we arent allowed to make a correction? If one tire passes through a gate, then we are not allowed to reverse?



Since when? I have seen many rigs enter a gate properly, get the front tires thru the gate clean and flip over backwards, slide down the rock etc and never a penalty called, if you enter a gate different than the intended course direction then you are wrong' nothing new about that, now from what I gather its just not a penalty to straddle a gate anymore, that's all. As a friend of mine stated "don't over think the simplicity"

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by hbj069

Since when? I have seen many rigs enter a gate properly, get the front tires thru the gate clean and flip over backwards, slide down the rock etc and never a penalty called, if you enter a gate different than the intended course direction then you are wrong' nothing new about that, now from what I gather its just not a penalty to straddle a gate anymore, that's all. As a friend of mine stated "don't over think the simplicity"

I completely agree. But what was being talked about earlier was different. If I read correctly, it was being said to enter, then back up....and that backup is what was being called as the "course direction" penalty...which I don't think is correct.

[Erik D_lux]

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

if you could drive over the gate completely, enough to reverse dig or reposition yourself without hitting the gate, your front tire would have exited the gate. reversing at that point would be re-entering the gate in the wrong direction before the gate has been progressed.

Originally Posted by jacobflyin

But on the other side I have seen guy trying to clear a gate come to close with the rear tires back all the way out and do it again so would that be the same thing? And be called entering the gate backwards!

I guess there is nothing really in the rules to define "entering a gate".

IMO, like Jake said above, I would consider a gate entered once the plane is crossed or the front of a gate is touched. I would also consider that gate "entered" and you could come at any other way after that.

If you do straddle, take a reverse to correct yourself and go through the gate in reverse and call that "entering a gate in the wrong direction", you would also need to call this penalty for anybody who:

Drives both front tires cleanly through a gate, cant get their rears up and need to reverse to take a different line.

Drives both front tires cleanly through a gate, keeps the tires spinning in the forward direction and slides back though a gate.

Drives both tires to the exit plane, hits a ledge with their front tires barely exiting the plane and falling back onto the plane or simply having their tire bounce could cause them to bounce back into the plane after barely getting past the plane.

IMO, too many instances where you could accidentally cross the plane with the rear of the front tires and then come back in.

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

i can see an instance if we leave this unchecked that a guy could drive complely over a gate marker( front and rear tires both passing the gate)

If you straddle and get 1 front and 1 rear through, thats considered progress/gate. No correcting the situation after progress has been deemed.

Edit:

Maybe you meant that the front straddles and the rear does not straddle and then you back up? IMO, thats in the rules and possible. I think as discussed, the way to avoid this would be a taller gate.

I was thinking of some simple tall gates. I think you could drill a hole in the middle of a gate and then just put a 3" tall wooden dowel in it? Then you cant straddle without hitting it. If you had all your gates with holes in them, you could also put different length dowels in there to make them different heights.

[Erik D_lux]

Originally Posted by hbj069

Since when? I have seen many rigs enter a gate properly, get the front tires thru the gate clean and flip over backwards,

Yep, just another instance where you would call that entering the gate in reverse.

Again, IMO, once entered the correct way, it is then deemed "entered". Just like when you progress a gate. Once deemed "progressed" the gates are live, but you can go through it anyway you want.