02-05-2014, 01:10 PM | #641 | |
Rock Crawler Join Date: May 2010 Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 771
| Re: 2013 Rules Quote:
It seems to me the definitions of "progress" "cleared/uncleared" and "completed" need better definition and the points reward need to be clarified... i was under the assumption the points we rewarded for "progress" as defined.. not "completon" which seems undefined. Last edited by T3rry; 02-05-2014 at 01:12 PM. | |
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02-05-2014, 01:29 PM | #642 | |
Rock Crawler Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Great Outdoors
Posts: 651
| Re: 2013 Rules
Well which is it? You want to agree to disagree or you want to clarify the rules? If you don't think there's a wording problem, don't change anything. Personally, I think that new wording gets it done. Quote:
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02-05-2014, 03:15 PM | #643 | |
I wanna be Dave Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: on a Big Rock
Posts: 7,837
| Re: 2013 Rules Quote:
1.10 - Progress bonus (-2 progress point): shall be awarded to drivers for each gate after it has been cleared during the attempt of a course. All gate penalties are assessed and given before a progress bonus is awarded. Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate. To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty, all four tires must pass completely through the gate during the same attempt and in the intended course direction (See Illustration A). Progress points are deducted from the total course score. Once a driver has pointed out, no further Progress points will be awarded. (See 1.5 for examples of Gate penalties) | |
02-05-2014, 03:35 PM | #644 | |
Rock Crawler Join Date: May 2010 Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 771
| Re: 2013 Rules Quote:
The hilighted area rule clearly states "without gate penalty", i never said "without penalty" at any point, i understand there would be a penalty, but dont under stand a what point the progress would be awarded as the truck obviously met the criteria of "progress" like if i drive sideways out of the pic i previously mentioned, that gate completed, with gate penalty and progress, but at what point? when my front axle is over the ball? chassis over the ball? rear axle over the ball? some imaginary line that goes sideways out of the ball that is based on the angle of the axle...? at what point would you consider the gate "completed" both with progress, and gate penalty, in the example in the rules? i really don't see how hard this question is to answer, you say the gate must be completed to finish the course/gate, but you cant tell me at what point the gate is considered completed in this situation. I am bringing this up to try to avoid future confusion, if you don't appreciate the constructive criticism of the rules, let me know and i'll drop it.. i am not trying to clarify this for my benefit, but for everybody so it's more black and white, less grey. Last edited by T3rry; 02-05-2014 at 03:42 PM. | |
02-05-2014, 03:51 PM | #645 | |
RCC Addict Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Saving for Nationals!!
Posts: 1,696
| Re: 2013 Rules Quote:
As illustrated for a gate to be cleared, the outermost edge of the tire must pass beyond the outermost edge of the gate marker, and here is the kicker, all 4 tires must pass the gate markers as written in the rule, for progress to actually be awarded. So, sitting in the gate with 2 tires through is good for progress, but only awarded when all 4 tires have passed the plane of the gate. So, in your example, if they sit there as is, no progress, nothing is awarded until the vehicle exits the gate completely. | |
02-05-2014, 03:52 PM | #646 |
Rock Crawler Join Date: May 2010 Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 771
| Re: 2013 Rules
Ugh. nevermind.
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02-05-2014, 06:59 PM | #647 | |
Rock Crawler Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Great Outdoors
Posts: 651
| Re: 2013 Rules Quote:
Last edited by Hardline; 02-05-2014 at 07:01 PM. | |
02-05-2014, 08:34 PM | #648 | |
RCC Addict Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Saving for Nationals!!
Posts: 1,696
| Quote:
Smh, my point was this, no progress is awarded until the vehicle exits the gate, and they are not eligible to receive progress points unless two tires from each wheel pass the the plane if the gate successfully in the intended direction. Clean gate = 4 tires though clean and exit gate plane Progress with penalty = 1 tire from each axle through the intended direction and exit gate plane with all 4 wheels, see the illustration above. Sent from Tapatalk | |
02-06-2014, 02:18 AM | #649 |
RCC Addict Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,809
| Re: 2013 Rules
The tricky thing here is that there are two rule paragraphs that, if read literally, contradict each other. Contradictions highlighted: 1.10 - Progress bonus (-2 progress point): shall be awarded to drivers for each gate after it has been cleared... 7.2.1 - A gate is considered cleared when at least one front and one rear wheel passes between the two gate markers, and all four tires are past the gate in the intended direction of the gate. 7.2.6 - If one wheel from the front axle and one wheel from the rear axle passes between the two gate markers, that gate is considered a cleared gate. ... (No mentioning that the rest of the vehicle must get through!) So, reading this it seems like 7.2.6 is a sub-part of 7.2.1, indicating that the gate is considered cleared even BEFORE the last wheel has a chance to enter the gate! Obviously not the intention of the rule, and 7.2.6 can be removed because it's covered by 7.2.1. By 7.2.1 I consider this to be a correct interpretation: |
02-06-2014, 06:47 AM | #650 |
Rock Stacker Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 52
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But that situation wouldn't be on a first attempt if you were to turn right for this 'no progress, no penalty'. It would also be a progress either way because 1 tire from each axle went through and a gate penalty due to the straddle of the gate. |
02-06-2014, 06:52 AM | #651 |
I wanna be Dave Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: EvilCrawlerDesigns@comcast.net
Posts: 3,510
| Re: 2013 Rules
A tire from each axle went between the gates in the intended direction. Once the tires are clear of the gate, it's scored as Gate, then Progress, regardless of which direction you turn after exiting the gate. You're trying to overthink this. |
02-06-2014, 07:29 AM | #652 | |
RCC Addict Join Date: May 2012 Location: Folsom
Posts: 1,867
| Re: 2013 Rules Quote:
in the picture only two tires are past the gate. this car is half way progressed. to get progress with a gate the car must turn in the intended gate direction. and drive all four tires past the gate. The gate is cleared (with out penalty) if all four tires pass through the gates. IMO there's another issue in your picture. turning down away from making progress in your picture would only result in gate penalty if the gate was touched. Gates penalties are given if the gate is touched or if during progress all four tires do not progress through the gate. Last edited by Curcal; 02-06-2014 at 07:34 AM. | |
02-06-2014, 10:24 AM | #653 | |
RCC Addict Join Date: May 2012 Location: Folsom
Posts: 1,867
| Re: 2013 Rules Quote:
Driver has enough tires through, but progress not counted till all tires are past the gate Last edited by Curcal; 02-06-2014 at 10:29 AM. | |
02-06-2014, 11:07 AM | #654 |
I wanna be Dave Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: here
Posts: 3,042
| Re: 2013 Rules |
02-06-2014, 12:15 PM | #655 |
I wanna be Dave Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: EvilCrawlerDesigns@comcast.net
Posts: 3,510
| Re: 2013 Rules
You guys are over thinking "intended direction". If you enter the gate in the opposite direction (the truck passes through the gates from the wrong way, you stop time and reposition to the last cleared gate. When a tire from each axle enters and proceeds through in the intended direction, it doesn't matter which direction you drive as you exit the gate. |
02-06-2014, 01:33 PM | #656 |
Rock Crawler Join Date: May 2010 Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 771
| Re: 2013 Rules
So after taking a day to think about it and re-read all the info provided here, this is a wording/terminology issue... the -2 points, is NOT awarded for "Progression" of the gate, it's awarded for "completion" of the gate, of which "progression" is a prerequisite. the way i understand it the points should be awarded for "Completion" which includes a "progression" (and may or may not include a gate penalty) but also requires that the truck exit the gate, which requires that the truck no longer be between, or straddling either of the gate markers for that gate... Correct? Last edited by T3rry; 02-06-2014 at 01:37 PM. |
02-06-2014, 01:58 PM | #657 | |
I wanna be Dave Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: EvilCrawlerDesigns@comcast.net
Posts: 3,510
| Re: 2013 Rules Quote:
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02-06-2014, 02:00 PM | #658 |
I wanna be Dave Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 16,952
| Re: 2013 Rules |
02-06-2014, 02:21 PM | #659 | |
Rock Crawler Join Date: May 2010 Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 771
| Re: 2013 Rules Quote:
Plain and simple fact is, you are not being awarded for progression, at least not until the gate is "completed" so why call it a progression point when you don't get it until you completed the gate, the definition is which, is not even in the rules? so people get to guess... what's the point of rules if they're not explicit and understandable?... I know i'm not in the cool kids club so it's cool to rag on me.. sorry for trying to make things better for everybody by having rules, and in this case a judging test, which actually makes sense... i'll shut up now... with support like this in this hobby, it's no wonder it's dying. Last edited by T3rry; 02-06-2014 at 02:23 PM. | |
02-06-2014, 03:14 PM | #660 | |
I wanna be Dave Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: EvilCrawlerDesigns@comcast.net
Posts: 3,510
| Re: 2013 Rules Quote:
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