2013 Rules

[T3rry]

Originally Posted by EvilTwin v2

Stop whining that you're the victim in this. You've asked basically the same question over and over. It's been explained that Progress is when one front and one rear tire have passed completely through the gate, and now you're trying to argue the "Completion" of a gate. At no point was the word "Completion" mentioned in Fish's explanation to you. He defined Progress as it relates to our hobby. You've argued and argued the point. I'm really not sure if you don't understand what everybody is trying to explain to you or if you're trying to find a loophole in the rules. Regardless, please go back and read very carefully. If you don't understand, ask us to clarify what it is that you don't understand, but stop trying to put extra words into the rules that aren't there.

I think it's pretty clear that you're the one that needs to go back and read... i cant believe i wasted my time on this when you cant even be bothered to read the discussion...

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

In the middle of the course with clock still running the driver has to move or you will get a DNF 40 minus progress.


Once you leave the gate and did not get ALL 4 tire through after making progress its a penalty.


If its the last gate then...the course must be completed


4.8 - Course Completion: The course is finished once the last gate is completed and progress has been awarded (see rule 1.10)



If your sitting there in the last gate then its not completed.

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

When you only answer half the questions on a test would you consider it completed?







Only if you consider going half way through a gate to be completed.


For the sake of argument lets agree to disagree. Would this make you happy?



1.10 - Progress bonus (-2 progress point): shall be awarded to drivers for each gate after it has been cleared during the attempt of a course. All gate penalties are assessed and given before a progress bonus is awarded. Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate, and the vehicle has completely left the gate. To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty, all four tires must pass completely through the gate during the same attempt and in the intended course direction (See Illustration A). Progress points are deducted from the total course score. Once a driver has pointed out, no further Progress points will be awarded. (See 1.5 for examples of Gate penalties)

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

In the middle of the course with clock still running the driver has to move or you will get a DNF 40 minus progress.


Once you leave the gate and did not get ALL 4 tire through after making progress its a penalty.


If its the last gate then...the course must be completed


4.8 - Course Completion: The course is finished once the last gate is completed and progress has been awarded (see rule 1.10)



If your sitting there in the last gate then its not completed.

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

When you only answer half the questions on a test would you consider it completed?







Only if you consider going half way through a gate to be completed.


For the sake of argument lets agree to disagree. Would this make you happy?



1.10 - Progress bonus (-2 progress point): shall be awarded to drivers for each gate after it has been cleared during the attempt of a course. All gate penalties are assessed and given before a progress bonus is awarded. Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate, [COLOR="ORANGE"]and the vehicle has completely left the gate. To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty, all four tires must pass completely through the gate during the same attempt and in the intended course direction (See Illustration A). Progress points are deducted from the total course score. Once a driver has pointed out, no further Progress points will be awarded. (See 1.5 for examples of Gate penalties) [/COLOR]

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Illustration A shows a truck in which a vehicle has completed a gate without penalty. Thus it has completed it and completely left the gate. I can't make it any clearer than that. Feel free to submit clearer definitions, and will have them submitted to Rules Committee.

1.10 - Progress bonus (-2 progress point): shall be awarded to drivers for each gate after it has been cleared during the attempt of a course. All gate penalties are assessed and given before a progress bonus is awarded. Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate. To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty, all four tires must pass completely through the gate during the same attempt and in the intended course direction (See Illustration A). Progress points are deducted from the total course score. Once a driver has pointed out, no further Progress points will be awarded. (See 1.5 for examples of Gate penalties)

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by T3rry

sorry, i didn't realize trying to make things understandable was considered nitpicking...

Plain and simple fact is, you are not being awarded for progression, at least not until the gate is "completed" so why call it a progression point when you don't get it until you completed the gate, the definition is which, is not even in the rules? so people get to guess... what's the point of rules if they're not explicit and understandable?...

I know i'm not in the cool kids club so it's cool to rag on me.. sorry for trying to make things better for everybody by having rules, and in this case a judging test, which actually makes sense...

i'll shut up now... with support like this in this hobby, it's no wonder it's dying.

Lets try this from another angle.

I have tried my best to explain it from my way of thinking, so lets hear yours.

Whats a explicit and understandable definition of complete or completed in the context of rock crawling in your mind, and how would you define it?

[T3rry]

i think i explained it pretty well already...

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Lets try this from another angle.

I have tried my best to explain it from my way of thinking, so lets hear yours.

Whats a explicit and understandable definition of complete or completed in the context of rock crawling in your mind, and how would you define it?

Originally Posted by T3rry

So after taking a day to think about it and re-read all the info provided here, this is a wording/terminology issue...

the -2 points, is NOT awarded for "Progression" of the gate, it's awarded for "completion" of the gate, of which "progression" is a prerequisite.

the way i understand it
the points should be awarded for "Completion" which includes a "progression" (and may or may not include a gate penalty) but also requires that the truck exit the gate, which requires that the truck no longer be between, or straddling either of the gate markers for that gate...

Correct?

[Jslick]

Progress or "complete" gate means when you clear it ; cleanly or not and completely (all the way) get through it. The word Completed means when you are finished the entire course.

Did we cover all the suffixes of complete?

[T3rry]

Originally Posted by Jslick

Progress or "complete" gate means when you clear it ; cleanly or not and completely (all the way) get through it. The word Completed means when you are finished the entire course.

Did we cover all the suffixes of complete?

Which is what your -2 award is for, not the simple act of "progress"..

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by T3rry

So after taking a day to think about it and re-read all the info provided here, this is a wording/terminology issue...

the -2 points, is NOT awarded for "Progression" of the gate, it's awarded for "completion" of the gate, of which "progression" is a prerequisite.

the way i understand it
the points should be awarded for "Completion" which includes a "progression" (and may or may not include a gate penalty) but also requires that the truck exit the gate, which requires that the truck no longer be between, or straddling either of the gate markers for that gate...

Correct?

Yes

[Jslick]

When you judge do you say progress or completion after they clear a gate? I say progress, same concept different terms.

[T3rry]

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Yes

thank you, that's all i was looking for.

[WAM]

Since the driver will get progress/penalty no matter how bad the exit goes, his best option: Reverse into a back axle straddle until he can cut his wheels down course and exit the other two tires. Since straddle is no longer a penalty, that's four tires thru, with just a reverse penalty.

[T3rry]

Originally Posted by WAM

Since the driver will get progress/penalty no matter how bad the exit goes, his best option: Reverse into a back axle straddle until he can cut his wheels down course and exit the other two tires. Since straddle is no longer a penalty, that's four tires thru, with just a reverse penalty.

yeah, i understand the ideal situation, but there are plenty of situations that may prevent this... basically all i was looking for was clarification as to when progress would be awarded, which is when the gate is exited, and then the definition of exiting a gate, which is essential, no part of the truck between the balls, or straddling/over a ball.. so in this situation, if they drove forward and straddled the ball, the progress is not awarded until the ball is completely out from between the rear tires of the truck.

[T3rry]

Originally Posted by Jslick

When you judge do you say progress or completion after they clear a gate? I say progress, same concept different terms.

call it whatever you want.. call it womalongabingbang for all i care, as long as it's defined appropriately in the rules, where in this case, it's not,

the rule states progress is made when you get one tire form each axle trough the gate..

it should be, progress is made when you exit a gate in which you got one tire from each axle through.

and exiting or completing a gate should be defined as having no part of the truck in the gate (between the balls) or over/straddling the gate markers.

[T3rry]

Originally Posted by Jslick

When you judge do you say progress or completion after they clear a gate? I say progress, same concept different terms.

call it whatever you want.. call it womalongabingbang for all i care, as long as it's defined appropriately in the rules, where in this case, it's not,

the rule states progress is made when you get one tire from each axle trough the gate..

it should be, progress is made when you exit a gate which you got one tire from each axle through.

and exiting a gate should be defined as having no part of the truck in the gate (between the balls) or over/straddling the gate markers.

[Jslick]

Ahh that's better!

Never mind, you see an issue in the wording. I don't.

[T3rry]

Originally Posted by Jslick

Ahh that's better!

Never mind, you see an issue in the wording. I don't.

iknowrigth, what fun is it when stuff actually makes sense and explains exactly the expectations/requirements.

[Hardline]

Truck tumbles on a descent to #10 with just seconds to go. Winds up inverted, sideways in gate, two driver-side tires made it through. Driver calls time so he can walk down the slope, approaches truck, calls time in and does a legal roll-over recovery bringing the other two tires thru the gate. Progress, 5-point penalty, course complete. Everyone see it that way?

[tapped-out]

Originally Posted by Hardline

Truck tumbles on a descent to #10 with just seconds to go. Winds up inverted, sideways in gate, two driver-side tires made it through. Driver calls time so he can walk down the slope, approaches truck, calls time in and does a legal roll-over recovery bringing the other two tires thru the gate. Progress, 5-point penalty, course complete. Everyone see it that way?

sounds good to me...except for" progress, 5 point penalty, course complete"
IMO.. 5 point penalty, gate progress, reason being rollover was before gate progression & in some cases that 5 point penalty might point you out.

[EvilTwin v2]

Originally Posted by Hardline

Truck tumbles on a descent to #10 with just seconds to go. Winds up inverted, sideways in gate, two driver-side tires made it through. Driver calls time so he can walk down the slope, approaches truck, calls time in and does a legal roll-over recovery bringing the other two tires thru the gate. Progress, 5-point penalty, course complete. Everyone see it that way?

Yes. As long as all 4 tires went cleanly through. If any tire passed over a gate during either the original fall or during the legal rollover, then you'll have to figure in that gate penalty prior to progressing the final gate and finishing the course. Considering these trucks are usually pretty close to a 12 1/2" wheelbase and have 5" - 5 1/2" tall tires, if the gate is at all close to minimum width, there's a chance that the 17 - 17 1/2" long truck may not have gotten through cleanly.

[EvilTwin v2]

Originally Posted by tapped-out

sounds good to me...except for" progress, 5 point penalty, course complete"
IMO.. 5 point penalty, gate progress, reason being rollover was before gate progression & in some cases that 5 point penalty might point you out.

You are correct. The rollover penalty is assessed before the progress.

[Hardline]

1. Yes all four tires went through.
2. I didn't mean to imply an order of those things -- they just all happened. I understand your point.
3. There is still some uncertainty on float. Some believe that any part of the tire passing over any part of the marker is a penalty. But more believe only the portion of the tire normally in contact with the ground can cause a float. In this case (I have to make this up...don't remember) if just the leading edge of a tire passed over the edge of a gate, we would not have called a float. That would not have been the ground contact part of the tire. Without that distinction, you could get a float if a tire sidewall just leaned over a marker and we surely don't want that.

[EvilTwin v2]

Originally Posted by Hardline

3. There is still some uncertainty on float. Some believe that any part of the tire passing over any part of the marker is a penalty. But more believe only the portion of the tire normally in contact with the ground can cause a float. In this case (I have to make this up...don't remember) if just the leading edge of a tire passed over the edge of a gate, we would not have called a float. That would not have been the ground contact part of the tire. Without that distinction, you could get a float if a tire sidewall just leaned over a marker and we surely don't want that.

Be careful with that one. I, personally, would likely call a gate, unless the gate is setup much wider than the minimum 16". Try this. Setup a gate on the floor. Set the truck so that it's sitting between the gates, parallel to the gate, and try to slide the truck through. Unless that gate is 17.5 to 18" wide, you're not going to be able to slide the truck through without contacting at least one of the gates. This doesn't exactly fall under the same idea of sidehilling above a gate such that the tread of the tire is in contact with the ground, but the side of the tire is over the gate, but not touching it.