"Straddling a Gate"

[binaryterror]

This came up at a local comp. Seems a few of us have some differing opinions.

Lets say I drove into this position, no tires nor the crawler touched the gate or its "upward extending line".

So long as I drive out of this without hitting the gate...there is no penalty and a progress point? Just looking for clarification.

[dpdsurf]

I think you are correct. You only need to get both wheels form each axle through the gate without touching or straddling. Now if you in any way straddled the gate while trying to get out of your drawn scenario, you would get 10 pts. But still the progression if at least one wheel from each axle makes it between the markers. The rules state nothing about the body, so since you have to interpret them based on what they say, only an axle straddle, NOT a body straddle should be counted.

7.2 - Clearing of a Gate:
• 7.2.1 - A gate is considered cleared when at least one front and one rear wheel passes between the two
gate markers only in the intended direction of the gate.
• 7.2.2 - All gates must the cleared in the intended sequence of the course layout (gate 1, then gate 2,
then gate 3, and so on).
• 7.2.3 - A vehicle may travel through a gate while it is in reverse and still clear that gate as long as it only
travels though in the intended direction (reverse penalty(s) will be assessed as necessary).
• 7.2.4 - The first time through any un-cleared gate must be in the intended direction and in the correct
sequence of the course layout until that gate is cleared.
• 7.2.5 - You cannot attempt any un-cleared gates out of sequence. If you intentionally enter an un-cleared
gate out of sequence you will receive a DNF for that course.
o 7.2.5.1 - Example 1: If all four wheels of a vehicle pass between two gate markers that gate is
considered a cleared gate with no penalties and a gate progress bonus is awarded.
o 7.2.5.2 - Example 2: If one wheel from the front axle and one wheel from the rear axle passes
between two gate markers (vehicle straddles a gate), that gate is considered a cleared gate. This
however will result in a Gate Marker penalty of 10 points and a gate progress bonus is awarded.
o 7.2.5.3 - Example 3: If one wheel only from the front axle or one wheel only from the rear axle
passes between two gate markers (vehicle straddles a gate) that gate is not considered a cleared
gate. This will result in a Gate Marker penalty of 10 points and no gate progress bonus is awarded.

[Fishmaxx]

dpdsurf nailed it

[joemomma95]

Concerning your question, I see it as, you touch the gate marker or straddle the marker and it's a gate penalty.

A little off topic...

Originally Posted by binaryterror

...its "upward extending line".

This came up a while ago at one of our comps. There is no such thing in the 2009 rules, go ahead look for it, it's not there. This caused alot of problems for us at previous comps until one of us were smart enough to look for the exact wording in the current rules...after no one could find it we did away with the "invisible vertical plane" or "upward extending line" rule. Things work alot better now.

[Kamikaze]

http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...t=100_0737.flv

[chip cross]

Originally Posted by Kamikaze

http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...t=100_0737.flv

Show off !!! :-P

[cato]

Originally Posted by Kamikaze

http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...t=100_0737.flv

So...would you have incured a GATE penaltie

[JohnRobHolmes]

I would call that a gate penalty since his rear axle straddled the ball. Same as if he drove over it in any direction, once the ball is underneath your axles (and both tires on the axle are touching the ground) it is a gate penalty.

[chip cross]

Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes

I would call that a gate penalty since his rear axle straddled the ball. Same as if he drove over it in any direction, once the ball is underneath your axles (and both tires on the axle are touching the ground) it is a gate penalty.

I thought you had physically touch the gate before it was a gate ?

[JohnRobHolmes]

Originally Posted by chip cross

I thought you had physically touch the gate before it was a gate ?

Then what about someone that drives through with just the right side tires in? No straddle for them?

[chip cross]

Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes

Then what about someone that drives through with just the right side tires in? No straddle for them?

Good point

[ripper7777777]

o 7.2.5.2 - Example 2: If one wheel from the front axle and one wheel from the rear axle passes
between two gate markers (vehicle straddles a gate), that gate is considered a cleared gate. This
however will result in a Gate Marker penalty of 10 points and a gate progress bonus is awarded.
o 7.2.5.3 - Example 3: If one wheel only from the front axle or one wheel only from the rear axle
passes between two gate markers (vehicle straddles a gate) that gate is not considered a cleared
gate. This will result in a Gate Marker penalty of 10 points and no gate progress bonus is awarded.

But is that how straddling a gate is defined, just by an axle partially going over it, or does it need to completely go over it.

The examples make it sound like the axle needs to go completely through the gate not partially over the gate marker.

I have seen instances where a front axle has gone partially over the gate marker and the driver reversed, corrected and cleared the gate without ever touching it with their tires, I would think the Gate was cleared with no penalties but the reverse would get a penalty.


Oh and great video.

[JohnRobHolmes]

It will boil down to the judge, with the current rules. As long as they are consistent with everybody there isn't a problem. Most people I have talked with agree that it is a gate once the axle housing passes over the edge of the marker (assuming both tires on the axle are touching ground).

[ripper7777777]

Agreed, and a lot of these things like this that land in a grey area or unclearly defined area of the rules really should fall upon the club leaders. To me consistency in the judging at the club is what keeps it fair. But if you do end up at NATs or some other official comp I'd suggest you know what those judges definitions are.



EDIT:

It would appear that this examlple redefines it, instead of like the above statement of it being both front and rear, this is a single axle.

7.3.2 - If a wheel touches any object outside of a gate as the other wheel from the same axel passes
through a gate it is considered a straddle, a Gate Marker penalty is assessed.

So than would that mean passes completely through the gate or part way...... and yes I'm bored and tired, my 4 year old got me up at 4am with a stomach virus, I've been watching spongebob all day, so my brain is kinda freakin out...............................



You know if it was a cone it would have been a penalty, so now I think I'm just confusing myself

[slobin3d]

Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes

Then what about someone that drives through with just the right side tires in? No straddle for them?

I was under the impression that 3 tires have to clear the gate in order to give progress, In his example I would say he's good, because his axles didn't cross over the gate in a forward movement. and I don't believe that the gate crossed the centerline of his axle.

Kind of reminds me of putting 12' lumber through a 10' door on the forklift

[jfraymond]

Wouldn't that example be a clean progress?

he didnt touch the gate and his opposite wheel on each axle were inside the boundary of the gates when the first wheels on said axles cross the plane of the gate.

[ripper7777777]

Originally Posted by jfraymond

Wouldn't that example be a clean progress?

he didnt touch the gate and his opposite wheel on each axle were inside the boundary of the gates when the first wheels on said axles cross the plane of the gate.

Refering to the video:

Well I thought so at first but now I'm thinking of the markers more like a cone and by WeRock rules it would be a penalty. So no floating over them.


But as long as everyone gets the same call from the judges than it's all good, clarification from RCC or USRCCA on a subject like this would only really matter if you were going to nats or another official comp where there would be a whole new set of judges.

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by slobin3d

I was under the impression that 3 tires have to clear the gate in order to give progress

Originally Posted by jfraymond

Wouldn't that example be a clean progress?

he didnt touch the gate and his opposite wheel on each axle were inside the boundary of the gates when the first wheels on said axles cross the plane of the gate.

3 tires appears NO where in the Rules, and to my knowledge never has Thats some 1:1 rule that keeps getting dragging into RC Crawling

A cleared Gate
7.2 - Clearing of a Gate:
• 7.2.1 - A gate is considered cleared when at least one front and one rear wheel passes between the two
gate markers only in the intended direction of the gate.

It dosn't say you didin't get a penelty....it only referring to gate clearing.


Rule 1.5 is very clear


1.5 - Gate Marker: (10 pts each) each gate will be comprised of 2 gate markers. Points are given when 4 wheels do not travel between gate markers or any part of the vehicle or driver touches a gate marker.


Kamikazi's truck exploits the fact a straddle is defined as..

7.3.2 - If a wheel touches any object outside of a gate as the other wheel from the same axel passes
through a gate it is considered a straddle, a Gate Marker penalty is assessed.

.....technically his other wheel wasn't between the gate markers. The rule was written before this type of move was possible. I would look for that "grey" area to be closed.

Just remember nothing over rides Rule 1.5.

Any thing written in section 7 is just a definition or an example what type of call is made or when it occurs. Nothing there over rides 1.5

[chip cross]

So, I was right.

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by chip cross

I thought you had physically touch the gate before it was a gate ?

Originally Posted by chip cross

So, I was right.

NO


7.3.2 - If a wheel touches any object outside of a gate as the other wheel from the same axel passes
through a gate it is considered a straddle, a Gate Marker penalty is assessed.

No gate touching is required for a straddle to be called