Alt & Bonus gate Questions ....

[JPH Racing]

1) Alternate gate, is it worth up to 10 points? Or is it worth 1 progress + the bonus of up to 10?

2) Bonus gate, it's after the course is finished, do you drive to the start of the gate, or can you carry your rig closer to the gate and start attacking it?

[Culetto]

Originally Posted by JPH Racing

1) Alternate gate, is it worth up to 10 points? Or is it worth 1 progress + the bonus of up to 10?

2) Bonus gate, it's after the course is finished, do you drive to the start of the gate, or can you carry your rig closer to the gate and start attacking it?

It depends on the course designer. I have seen bonus gates at the end of a course and -10 alternate/bonus gates right in the middle. Its really up to the designer and the club what they want to allow.

[dpdsurf]

1. Jake, I had similar questions myself. Based on 1.10 you get -1 for each gate you progress. Since it does not say anything about if it is or is not an alternate gate, we are giving it -1 plus the additional amount.

1.10 - Progress bonus:

(-1 progress point) will be awarded to drivers for each gate that is cleared by the
vehicle during the attempt of a course. Both axles of the vehicle must clear a gate, and not just break the
plane of the gate, before progress bonus is awarded. These points are deducted from the total course
score. Once a driver has pointed out, no further Progress Points will be awarded. A progress bonus will not

be awarded for the start gate or the finish gate.

Alternates are "up to -10", so it is at the designer's descretion. It also states that "normal scoring rules apply" I would refer back to 1.10 as far as progression goes. So we have been scoring -1 + -10 on the alternate gates. To me it is unclear which way to go on this.

4.6.2 - Alternate Gates:

(up to -10 points per course) are a secondary set of gates that is part of the
course. These gates will be very difficult. Normal Scoring rules apply with the exception of (1) Free

Reverse/Back Up, this is used in order to abort your attempt and continue on the regular course.

2. I would say it is at the course designer's descretion. The rules say nothing about setting up your position for the bonus. But they do mention if the driver needs to reposition they will not be awarded the bonus. But this could be interpreted as after the driver official starts making forward progress towards the bonus gate.

4.6.1 - Bonus Gates:

(up to –10 points per course) award negative points against the total score if the
driver is successful in clearing these gates. Bonus Gates have special rules. No Reverse or Rollover
penalties will be assessed while attempting a bonus gate. If a driver needs to Reposition or hits a Gate
Marker a Bonus Gate will not be awarded. Although grouped with a course, bonus gates are not part of an
actual course, but may be attempted after completing the course where the bonus gate is located (within

the time limit of that course - if applicable).

[Fishmaxx]

Typically Progress points are NOT awarded to Bonus Gate at the end of the run. Doing so would make it an 11 pt Bonus not a 10 pt Bonus , but it is really up to the course designer.

[dpdsurf]

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Typically Progress points are NOT awarded to Bonus Gate at the end of the run. Doing so would make it an 11 pt Bonus not a 10 pt Bonus , but it is really up to the course designer.

That's what I said but I got overruled. But specific to alternate, not bonus. We typically have 5 gates so it does look better to have a possible -15 as opposed to a -14 on the course with an alternate gate.

[Biscuit]

I'm pretty sure you wouldnt give progression on the bonus gate. If you did it would be a -11 point gate and the rules say it is worth "up to -10".

[Biscuit]

Didnt see where Fish had responded..... so,"Yeah, what he said". How's it going Fish? Hadnt seen you in a while.

[JPH Racing]

I was under the impression that the progress points on an alternate gate could be up to 10. And, when progress is made through the gate, then it's worth that many points. Not -1 progress and then - points for the alternate.

It was scored both ways on Sunday .... Depending on the judges. It's bitten us locally before, would be nice if there was a hard fast rule on this. That always makes it easier on everyone. Maybe this can be cleaned up whenever the 2009 rules come out?

[jfraymond]

My understanding of the difference is that a ALTERNATE GATE is part of the course....therfore when you get to that point you have the choice of either going thru the regular gate or the alternate....which everway you choose you still get a progess point for that part of the course , but if you chose the alternate gate route you can get additional points up to -10 for chosing that path.

the BONUS GATE is not part of the course and when you get to the part of the course where its located (usually after the finish line) you may try to complete it for up to -10 points and then resume the course. (of course since its usually located after the finish you just attack it until you get it or run out of time)

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by jfraymond

My understanding of the difference is that a ALTERNATE GATE is part of the course....therfore when you get to that point you have the choice of either going thru the regular gate or the alternate....which everway you choose you still get a progess point for that part of the course , but if you chose the alternate gate route you can get additional points up to -10 for chosing that path.

the BONUS GATE is not part of the course and when you get to the part of the course where its located (usually after the finish line) you may try to complete it for up to -10 points and then resume the course. (of course since its usually located after the finish you just attack it until you get it or run out of time)

BINGO

[dpdsurf]

Originally Posted by jfraymond

My understanding of the difference is that a ALTERNATE GATE is part of the course....therfore when you get to that point you have the choice of either going thru the regular gate or the alternate....which everway you choose you still get a progess point for that part of the course , but if you chose the alternate gate route you can get additional points up to -10 for chosing that path.

the BONUS GATE is not part of the course and when you get to the part of the course where its located (usually after the finish line) you may try to complete it for up to -10 points and then resume the course. (of course since its usually located after the finish you just attack it until you get it or run out of time)

You are correct. The questions are not about the distinction between alternate and bonus gates. It is about how you score an alternate gate and how you get to a bonus gate.

[jfraymond]

Originally Posted by dpdsurf

You are correct. The questions are not about the distinction between alternate and bonus gates. It is about how you score an alternate gate and how you get to a bonus gate.

Scoring of a ALternate gate is easy....you get the amount of points that it is worth if you complete the entire course (up to a max of -10) Remeber other than your 1 free reverse, gate penalties, rollovers, ect. are all still in play. Think of the alternate gate as PART of the regular gate it is linked to....like one big gate divided into 2 halves.....you go thru the main part of the gate you get no extra negative points just your -1 progress, you go thru the alternate half of the gate you still get your -1 progress and the additional negative points that it is valued at assuming you complete the course.

The Bonus gate is equally easy to score...It is located somewhere outside the regular course.....usually after the finish gate but it could be between a set of gates. WHen you get to its location you can just hammer away to try and make it for up to -10 points without worring about any penalties other than a reposition, hitting the gate or running out of time.

[dpdsurf]

Originally Posted by jfraymond

Scoring of a ALternate gate is easy....you get the amount of points that it is worth if you complete the entire course (up to a max of -10) Remeber other than your 1 free reverse, gate penalties, rollovers, ect. are all still in play. Think of the alternate gate as PART of the regular gate it is linked to....like one big gate divided into 2 halves.....you go thru the main part of the gate you get no extra negative points just your -1 progress, you go thru the alternate half of the gate you still get your -1 progress and the additional negative points that it is valued at assuming you complete the course.

This is not totally true. Normal scoring rules apply so you get the (up to -10 points) progression regardless if you complete the course or not. Also, you do not get a free reverse, it is only free if you use it to abort going for the Alternate gate.

The scoring issue is that some are combining rules 1.10 and 4.6.1 for alternate gates. 1.10 says that -1 point is awarded for each gate that is cleared. 4.6.1 states that up to -10 pts is awarded for clearing these gates. So if you take these two rules literal, which you are supposed to, you get -1 point per rule 1.10 and -10 per rule 4.6.1 for a total of -11.

[jfraymond]

I stand corrected...I went back thru the rulebook and their is no "official" wording that those points are only counted if the course is completed and the free reverse is only if the intention is to change your mind and go back to the regualr gate( of course I could argue that first reverse was changing my mind and then one second later changed my mind again to try the ALt agian. )....but I do know every comp I have competed in where alternate gates are used that they only counted them if you sucessfully completed the course....must be a general tradition that is adopted to match real 1:1 comp rulings. Otherwise if your short on time there would be no reason to try and complete the course when you can just try and get the -10 capping your max on the course at 30 for only making one alt gate.

And I will say it could be worded better on the scoring....but an alternate gate has to count as part of the gate you have the choice on and get the -1 progress...otherwise it would by default be a Bonus gate if you had to then go back and complete the gate you were given the alternative on. SO in effect you get the -1 progress point for that part of the course and then get your up to -10 for the alternate points.

While i was looking I also noticed that the rules dont state a maximum of -10 "progress points".....it is a maximum of -10 "points".....which i will assume to mean penalty points as the 2 terms are used throughout the rest of the rulebook.

Anyway My above reference was just my interpretation as to how I would apply the rules...IN reality there is ALOT of fuzzy interpretation that can be made of the current rulebook in nearly every area if you are willing to go to enough trouble to form your argument...Bottom line IMHO is that 99.9% of the ruling problems arent rulebook problems but a person to person application of them to a single event problem.....its like holding in football or traveling in basketball or ground rules in Baseball .... It all boils down to the judge being consistent in his calls on his course and the local group running the comp to go over any local provisions before the comp....thats what the drivers meeting is for and it would be a good habit to get into for every legit comp.

[dpdsurf]

Originally Posted by jfraymond

I stand corrected...I went back thru the rulebook and their is no "official" wording that those points are only counted if the course is completed and the free reverse is only if the intention is to change your mind and go back to the regualr gate( of course I could argue that first reverse was changing my mind and then one second later changed my mind again to try the ALt agian. )....but I do know every comp I have competed in where alternate gates are used that they only counted them if you sucessfully completed the course....must be a general tradition that is adopted to match real 1:1 comp rulings. Otherwise if your short on time there would be no reason to try and complete the course when you can just try and get the -10 capping your max on the course at 30 for only making one alt gate.

And I will say it could be worded better on the scoring....but an alternate gate has to count as part of the gate you have the choice on and get the -1 progress...otherwise it would by default be a Bonus gate if you had to then go back and complete the gate you were given the alternative on. SO in effect you get the -1 progress point for that part of the course and then get your up to -10 for the alternate points.

While i was looking I also noticed that the rules dont state a maximum of -10 "progress points".....it is a maximum of -10 "points".....which i will assume to mean penalty points as the 2 terms are used throughout the rest of the rulebook.

Anyway My above reference was just my interpretation as to how I would apply the rules...IN reality there is ALOT of fuzzy interpretation that can be made of the current rulebook in nearly every area if you are willing to go to enough trouble to form your argument...Bottom line IMHO is that 99.9% of the ruling problems arent rulebook problems but a person to person application of them to a single event problem.....its like holding in football or traveling in basketball or ground rules in Baseball .... It all boils down to the judge being consistent in his calls on his course and the local group running the comp to go over any local provisions before the comp....thats what the drivers meeting is for and it would be a good habit to get into for every legit comp.

We typically place the alternate gate towards the beginning of the course, so time is not really a consideration when going for the alternate. I feel you should be rewarded because it could be going for the alternate that caused problems for you later on in the course. I went for an alternate 2 weeks ago that nobody else had tried all day, the course was a fairly easy one to get a low to negative score on. I hit both the alternate gates but got the progression -10. But I pointed out later on in the course because of those 2 prior gates, but I ended up with a 26. If we played by the rule that you have to complete the course to get the -10, I would have never gone for it.

I agree with your last paragraph completely. Though it's good to interpret the rules as best as possible, there will always be gray areas and judgement calls.

[finishline]

So on a bonus gate when it says If a driver needs to Reposition or hits a Gate Marker a Bonus Gate will not be awarded. Does that mean he is penalized 10 pionts or does it mean he can no longer attempt bonuse gate and no penalty given?

[ROCKCAD]

good question! hopefully someone who knows for sure will chime in. i would think you still get a 10 pt. penalty and cannot be awarded points for the bonus gate. if a driver did not get penalized for hitting a gate or reposition, everybody would try to get the bonus gate.

Originally Posted by finishline

So on a bonus gate when it says If a driver needs to Reposition or hits a Gate Marker a Bonus Gate will not be awarded. Does that mean he is penalized 10 pionts or does it mean he can no longer attempt bonuse gate and no penalty given?

[dpdsurf]

Originally Posted by finishline

So on a bonus gate when it says If a driver needs to Reposition or hits a Gate Marker a Bonus Gate will not be awarded. Does that mean he is penalized 10 pionts or does it mean he can no longer attempt bonuse gate and no penalty given?

It means he can no longer attempt the bonus. You do not receive any penalty points to your score from the completed course the bonus is on.

[dpdsurf]

Originally Posted by ROCKCAD

good question! hopefully someone who knows for sure will chime in. i would think you still get a 10 pt. penalty and cannot be awarded points for the bonus gate. if a driver did not get penalized for hitting a gate or reposition, everybody would try to get the bonus gate.

Part of your comments would only apply to an Alternate gate. You still get progression points for an alternate gate if you progressed it.

Bonus gates are a free for all until you either progress it cleanly, run out of time, hit a gate marker, or roll over and can not upright your rig without touching it, which usually results in timing out.

[mann0mann]

not to derail this OT.

So, just to clarify - if time allows...there is no risk in attempting a bonus gate then?

As soon as you hit a gate, rollover or reposition or timeout...your simply done. No penalties taken to your completed course score and no bonus progression points awarded. Correct?