2013 SORRCA Scale rules

[War Pig]

Hey guys, so here are the revised 2013 SORRCA rules. Please note that changes are highlighted in yellow.

SORRCA
Scale Off Road RC Association
2013 Official Scale Rock Crawling Competition Rules

Introduction:
This rulebook is intended to standardize scale off road RC competitions that are held at various locations throughout the world. The intention is for all clubs/events to use these rules as written; however, they may be modified on a local basis. Any and all changes made to these rules at a SORRCA sanctioned event must be covered in a preliminary drivers meeting and publicly posted before the event.


Class Descriptions:

Class-1 “Street"
• Description - A street legal off-road vehicle that you would drive to work or the trail head and outfit like an expedition vehicle such as the Camel Trophy truck D90 rigs.

Class-2 “Trail”
• Description - A stock vehicle that has been modified to become a capable trail rated rig and is not necessarily street legal .

Class-3 “Modified”
• Description - An off-road vehicle that you would build from the ground up and might see in a TTC/KOH type competition.

General Vehicle Details
• You are encouraged to go above and beyond to make your truck as scale as possible.
• Vehicles must resemble a real 1:1 rig. It will be up to the collective group to vote on whether a questionable rig is accepted or not.
• Tire size will be determined by advertised manufacturer specs (tires without available specs will be measured off the truck as mounted on the wheel laid flat).
•Tire modification:
Class-1 Street. No external tire modification is allowed.
Class-2 Trail. Tire lugs may be removed, siped, grooved and/or trimmed.
Class-3 Modified. Tire modifications are permitted, as long as the tire is no larger than 5.75" in diameter measured off the vehicle laying on it's side, and all tire parts are from a legal scale tire.
• You must run a rail chassis (for example: Bruiser/Mountaineer, SCX-10, Reign RC K2-3S, 3L, 4, 5, MFM, X-Trail, CR-01, UTE, etc...) No TVP (twin vertical plate) chassis' or frame rail extensions on a TVPs. The exception to this rule is the Tamiya CC-01 or TA-02 ,(Hummer, S-10, Ford F-150 and Toyota Hilux)and Modified class Tubers.
• 4-wheel steering or dig is allowed in modified class only (you must choose 1 per course).
• No "Motor On Axle" (MOA) of any kind. All motors, transmissions, and other electronics (other than steering servos) must be chassis or frame mounted. Your axles must be driven by one transmission or transfer case and a minimum of two driveshafts (except CC-01, TA-02, etc) No separate throttle control of drive shafts or axles.
• There are no wheel size distinctions. For example, you can run a 1.55, 1.9, 2.0 or 2.2 rim in any class. Wheels larger than 2.2 are not allowed in any class and no short course style wheels with split diameters.
• Spare tires must be within 1/4" diameter of your drive tires to receive points.
• Any functional recovery tools you wish to use during your run, you must carry it on your rig at all times. IE tow strap, pull pal, and sand ladders.
• Winching can only be performed off of natural objects (i.e. trees, rocks, etc...), other vehicles, or stakes supplied by the course builder. Winching off of a person such as their shoe or hand is not allowed.
• All vehicles should have the motor, transmission, and electronics covered and hidden when viewed from the top and sides. Batteries must be chassis mounted and should be hidden from view.
• Courses will be tough and made to push the scale vehicle's limits. This is to encourage competitors to improve their rigs from one event to another.
• Winches are HIGHLY recommended!!!!! Expect to use a winch.
• Water proofing is HIGHLY recommended!!!!! Expect your rig to get wet.


Tire Ban List:

• Losi Claws (all sizes, and types)
• Hot Bodies Rovers (all sizes)
• Hot Bodies Sedonas
• HPI Rock Grabbers
• Panther Cougars
• Panther Leopards
• Pro-Line Chisels (all sizes)
• RC4WD Rocklin
• RC4WD X-Locks (all sizes)
• RC4WD Crazy Crawlers
• Imex Skulls and Bones
• Losi Bashers

Tires should be scale appearing, if it is questionable have it reviewed before the event, or plan to run a different tire. As new competition specific tires are released this list may be updated.



Class-1 “Street” Details:

• Vehicle must have a windshield that fills the entire windshield frame.
• Full width bumpers are required on the front and rear of the vehicle. Bumpers that are molded into the body qualify. A rear bumper is not required on a flatbed, but adding one to the flatbed will gain the additional scale points. (Bumpers are measured from the outsides and must be the width of your windshield).
• Wheels must be aligned within the body wheel wells (center of wheels to center of wheel wells +/- 1/2 inch total combined)
• The vehicles body must be mostly intact. Only mild trimming such as flairs & removing a hardtop are allowed. If the hardtop is removed, a full interior is required (no extreme trimming of bodies allowed *See below.)
• The tread of the tires cannot extend outside of the wheel wells more then 1/2 of the tread width, flairs can be added to reach min. spec.
• Vehicle must run a full length rail chassis (The rail chassis must be as long as the vehicles wheelbase)(Tamiya CC-01 chassis are allowed).
• Truggies are not allowed, flatbeds with full length rail chassis are allowed. The bed must be as wide as the cab the entire length of the bed. Cab only not allowed.
• Tires can never extend beyond the body’s bumpers or the rear of any truck bed. (Any stingers, fairleads, shackles, bolts, etc are not considered part of a bumper when determining this.)
• Dovetailing is not allowed.
• Sectioning or narrowing of the body is not allowed.
• Bobbing a truck bed is allowed, but must follow all body specs.
• Boat sides are not allowed.
• 106mm / 4.19" Max tire size including spares.
• Gates will be a minimum of 11" wide (so mind your width).

Class-2 “Trail” Details:

• Body/cage work must be at least 4.5" tall (including boat sides) and the inside of the front tires cannot extend outside of the width of the cab at the doors.
• A front bumper is required and must be mounted to the vehicle's rail chassis and must be wider than the outside of the chassis rails (chassis cross rails do not count as bumpers).
• You must run a full rail chassis, and the chassis (including bumpers) must be 3" longer than the wheelbase (this includes a chassis with a truggy rear frame).
•Truggies are allowed, but you must replace the ladder frame behind the cab with tube, and the truggy rails must extend past the rear axle pumpkin to be legal. The bed must have a roll bar hoop and integrated shock mounts. It also must be a structural part of the rear of the vehicle. (If your bed does not meet ALL of the preceding criteria, it does not count as a truggy bed).
• Flatbeds that run the full length of the rail chassis are allowed. The bed must be as wide as the cab the entire length of the bed.
• 2 of the 3 following modifications are allowed:
- Dovetailing the rear *a truggy/tube bed that is narrower than the cab counts as a dovetail* (1/2 the width of the widest part of the cab).
- Boat sides (no more than 1.25" measured vertically from the bottom of the skid).
- Pinching the front (2/3 the width of the widest part of the cab).
• 120mm / 4.75" max tire size with a 2.2 max rim size including spare.
• Gates will be a minimum of 12" wide (so mind your width).

Class-3 “Modified” Details:
• 146mm / 5.75" max tire size with a 2.2 max rim size (including spare).
• A bumper is not required, but to be counted for points it must be mounted to the vehicle's chassis and wider than the the chassis rails (chassis cross rails do not count as bumpers).
• Gates will be a minimum of 13" wide.
• Class 3 body minimum specs:
Rock sliders, mirrors, etc do not count in these measurements:
- The distance between the inside of the tires (of any axle) can be no greater than 1.25" more than the width of the body at the doors. *Example* (7" inside-of-tire to inside-of-tire = body must be 5.75" wide).
- The body must be at least 5" wide from the front to the rear of the doors.
- Tire height can be no more than 0.5" taller than cab height. Height is measured from the bottom of the skid to the top of the bodywork/tube not including a light bar. (5.5" tire = 5" tall from bottom of skid to top of cab/tubework)
- Body must be at least as long as the wheelbase of the vehicle.
• Body modifications including, but not limited to, pinched front, dove-tailing and boat-siding are permitted as long as the final dimensions comply with the minimum size rules.

[War Pig]

Scale Points:

Scale points are to be awarded at 50% of a vehicles total value (rounded down if necessary) for an average 10 gate course.
Minimum/Maximum values are to be determined by the event organizers or local clubs.
Scale points will be applied to a DNF but not to a DNS.
*No items can be counted more than once unless noted otherwise*

Bed: Not available to tubers.
• Tube bed OR flatbed: metal -3, plastic -1
• Bed mounted headache rack or roll bar: metal -2 plastic -1

•Truggy/back halved truck: metal -4, plastic -2
(Must replace the ladder frame behind the cab with tube, and must extend past the rear axle pumpkin to be legal. The bed must have a roll bar hoop and integrated shock mounts. It also must be a structural part of the rear of the vehicle. (If your bed does not meet ALL of the preceding criteria, it does not count as a truggy bed).Tube bed, roll bar, shock mount points not available in addition to truggy bed points.

Tuber: metal -8, plastic -4
A tuber consists of a complete body structure where the front, cab, and rear sections are comprised entirely of structural tubework.
Tube bed, roll bar, internal cage, and shock mounts points not available in addition to tuber points.
• Rigid metal/plastic body panels -1

Interior cage or exo-cage: (-3 metal -1 plastic) per row of seats or area where seats would be (vehicle doesn't need an interior to get these points). Cage must have down bars and cross bars in front and behind each row. Not available to tubers.

Tube accessories
• Sliders: (both sides) metal -3, plastic -1
• Integrated tube shock mounts: metal and brazed/welded to frame -1 (per pair)

Body
• Hard body: full -8, cab -4
• Drop bed : -3
• Complete custom built body: (metal or hard plastic, no lexan) full -4, Cab -2 (in addition to hard body points)
• Inner fender wells: -1 per pair

Bumpers (items must be chassis mounted and separate from the body).
• Bumpers : metal -3 each , plastic -1 each
• Stinger/grill guard: -1

Exterior roof rack/light bar (may only choose one).
• Roof rack: metal: -2, plastic -1
• Roof top light bar : metal -1

Interior:
• 3D interior: 1 seat -3, 2 seat (or bench) -4, 4 seat -5 (any 3D interior must include seat, dash, steering wheel and floor). A 3D SUV cargo area will be awarded an additional -1
• 2D/half interior: 1 seat -1, 2 seat -2, 4 seat -3.
• Driver/passenger must be human, scale sized adult figures. Only available if accompanied by an interior.
-4 Complete Figure
-3 Knees Up
-2 Torso Up
-1 Head with arms
-1 point for 3rd and 4th passengers (Kids OK for 3rd & 4th passengers)

Suspension/drivetrain/steering:
• Leaf springs (front/rear): -3 ea, -7 both.
• Multiple axles: 3 driven axles -3, 4 (or more) driven axles -5
• Chassis mounted steering servo: -5 (front) -2 (rear) *rear= Class 3 only*
• Functioning transfer case: -4.
• 3D engine: Must be in a reasonable location and appear to be powering the drivetrain of the vehicle (-4)

Realistic exterior items (max -6 pts): Items that are non-functional but you would see on a trail truck.
• Fuel cell, exhaust, jerry can, hubs on all wheels, steering stabilizer, disc/drum brakes on all wheels, mirrors(2), wipers(2), antenna, license plate, fire extinguisher, trail tools (Hi-lift jack, etc.) first aid, etc. -1 each

Functional items (max -8 pts for all items listed below):
• Tow strap, -D-ring, Pull Pal, sand ladder, hitch, opening doors and hood, spare tire mount, etc. -1 each
• Headlights(2) and taillights(2) -2
• Winch -2 front, -2 rear (max -4)
• Full size spare tire. -3

[War Pig]

Course points and penalties:

Points:

Progress: -2 points
Reverse: +1 point
Gate Marker: +10 points
Rollover: +5 points
Boundary Marker: +10 points
Vehicle touch (repair & repositions): +10 points
Course direction: +10 points
Winch: +3 points
Assisted recovery: +10 points
Dig/rear steer: +5 points
Did not finish (or point out): point out or high score on course +20 points
Did not start: Point out or high score on course +50 points

Back up/reverse: (+1 pt) point is given when a vehicle reverses course after making forward progress. Reversing is defined as at any time if any of the tires move the vehicle backward or spin in the reverse direction, whether engaged or in freewheel and/or whether intentional or not. Once a reverse penalty is given, no further reverse penalty can be given until the vehicle makes forward progress. No penalty is given if the backward movement is part of a penalized rollover. If a driver begins a course in reverse, a reverse penalty will occur immediately.

Rollover: (+5pts) Points are given when a vehicle rolls over and cannot be corrected without touching. Once the vehicle has stopped it may be rolled back onto it's wheels and a +5 point penalty shall be given. Vehicles that land back on their wheels without assistance are not penalized. No reverse penalties will be awarded until the vehicle is righted. The vehicle may at no time be lifted, slid or moved in any way other than a smooth, continuous roll to the left or right side only. Any other manipulation or movement of the vehicle will be considered a "vehicle touch" penalty.

Vehicle touch: (+10 pts) All vehicle touches excluding “rollovers”, "winching", "assisted recoveries" (see associated rules) , intentional or unintentional, are given an automatic +10 points. The judge then will stop time when either the driver calls for a vehicle touch or the judge calls a driver touch. The vehicle is then moved back by the driver to the previously cleared gate with the rear axle aligned to that gate. If the vehicle cannot be aligned to the gate due to course design, the judge will reposition the vehicle to the next stable location after the cleared gate. This location will be used for all drivers. Note: All gates for progress are still “live” unless a gate has already been deemed “dead”.

Vehicle touches: include but are not limited to: repairs, repositions, vehicle driving/falling into the driver.

On-course repairs: (+10pts) Must be completed on course and in the spot of which the driver decided to take the repair. Repairs must be made within the course time, while the course timer will continue to run. If repairs are made within the course time, the driver must return to the last previous gate cleared. If repairs cannot be made within the course time, the driver is given a DNF minus progress points for that course. There are no restrictions on whom or how the repairs are made.

Off-course repairs: (+10pts) A driver can call time to make an off-course repair. Repairs should be completed within 30 minutes, or the driver is given a DNF minus progress points. If the repair is made in the allotted time, the driver must return to the last previous gate cleared. A 1 minute time penalty will be subtracted from the time that is left on that course, the timer will continue once the vehicle makes forward progress.

Reposition: (+10 pts) The vehicle will be placed with it's rear tires in the last gate progressed or the nearest stable location after the last cleared gate if the last gate cleared is unstable.

Gate marker: (+10 pts each) each gate will be comprised of 2 gate markers. Points are given when all wheels do not travel between gate markers or any part of the vehicle, a tow strap or winch line touches a gate marker. A gate marker will remain "live" for the entire duration of the attempt on the course. Once any gate marker has been touched or straddled, no more penalties will be given for that gate marker. Only when a gate penalty is assessed will that gate marker be deemed "dead". No further penalties will be assessed at this point for that gate marker. There will no longer be a penalty for stepping on a gate (for safety reasons) but please stay off course as much as possible and limit course damage.

Boundary Marker: (+10 pts each) Points are given when any part of the vehicle touches a boundary marker. Once a boundary marker is touched the judge then will stop time, and the vehicle is then moved back by the driver to the previously cleared gate with the rear axle aligned to that gate. If the vehicle cannot be aligned to the gate due to course design, the judge will reposition the vehicle to the next stable location after the cleared gate. This location will be used for all drivers. A boundary marker will remain "live" for the entire duration of the attempt on the course, and should be replaced if moved. Boundary markers are not required in the design of a course.

DNF (Did Not Finish): (High score or point out +20 pts) are given anytime a driver cannot complete a course for any reason. (Time expired, point-out, vehicle not repairable, went hom, etc) Progress points are awarded for each gate completed and scale points are awarded. **If there is no point out you use the highest score on that course before scale and progress points**

DNS (Did Not Start): (High score or point out +50 pts) are given anytime a driver cannot start a course for any reason. Vehicle must start course under its own power. No scale points will be awarded to this course.

Progress bonus: (-2 progress point) shall be awarded to drivers for each gate that is cleared by the vehicle during the attempt of a course. A gate is considered cleared and a progress bonus shall be given when at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate in the intended direction of the gate. All tires must pass completely through the gate to receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty. A 10 point gate penalty shall be given if all tires do not clear the gate, even if no gate marker is touched or straddled. The tires of the vehicle must travel completely through the gate, and not just break the plane of the gate. Tires must pass through the gate in the same direction and in the same attempt before a progress bonus is awarded. These points are deducted from the total course score. Once a driver has pointed out, no further progress points will be awarded.

Course Direction: (+10 pts) Gates must be cleared in their intended direction and sequence. Any part of the vehicle entering an non-cleared gate in the wrong direction, or driven through out of sequence will result in a +10 point penalty. The judge will stop time. The vehicle is then moved back to the previously cleared gate (see reposition rule). Once the gate is cleared and awarded progress it can be traveled in any sequence or direction.

Winching: (+3 pts each) A winch penalty will be assessed every time the winch cable is connected for a pull. If the winch line comes unhooked during a pull, or a 2nd attachment is needed, another penalty will be assessed. If at any time during the process of removing recovery tools and/or winch line from vehicle, the vehicle is moved by any force other than it's winch or it's own power, a touch penalty will be assessed and the vehicle repositioned to the last cleared gate (see vehicle touch rule).

Assisted Recovery: (+10 pts) At any time during the course, a driver may call for an assisted recovery. With the clock running, another vehicle will be brought onto the course to pull or winch the stranded vehicle to safety. The stranded vehicle shall not be pulled beyond the original position of the rescuing vehicle or it will result in another assisted recovery penalty.

Dig/Rear steer (Class 3 only): (+5 pts) Dig and rear steer are both legal in Class 3, but only one may be used per course. The first use of dig or rear steer will incur a +5 point penalty, subsequent uses of the same feature (dig or rear steer) on the same course are free. Use of the other feature is prohibited. If at any time on the same course the driver uses rear steer after using dig, or uses dig after using rear steer, a +10 reposition penalty will be incurred, and the truck will be placed at the last cleared gate.

Safety time out: A driver may call for time to stop so that he or she may safely reposition themselves on the course. This time shall be used for the purpose of driver safety and may not be used to survey the course or for any other advantage. Once the competitor is repositioned the time will start, however the judge has the right to start time at any point.

Vehicle out-of-spec: If the Judge has reason to believe a vehicle is out of spec during a course run, he may call time to stop. At that point no additional inputs maybe given by the driver to the vehicle via touch or radio control. The Judge must mark the vehicle’s location and perform a tech inspection in the specified tech area (same manner as all other tech inspections). If the vehicle has been deemed within spec, the driver and vehicle will return to the location marked by the judge and the clock will start once again. If the vehicle is now out of spec and the Judge has determined that the vehicle has gained an advantage, the driver must take a repair to correct the problem. If the problem can not be corrected to bring the vehicle back within spec, the driver will receive a DNF for that course. If a vehicle falls out of spec due to breakage on course and the judge determines the driver has not gained an advantage, then the driver may be allowed to continue on course without stopping time and requiring a tech inspection. Bodies, and body panels are not included in this exception, and must be replaced immediately, standard repair procedures and penalties apply.

[War Pig]

Please direct any questions here:

2013 scale rules discussion or question thead

[JokersWild]

Awesome..... Thanks for highlighting it out tim..... Now I have more of a direction on my rig

[JeremyH]

Are these officially in place now? (I am headed to a scale comp this coming weekend.)

[War Pig]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

Are these officially in place now? (I am headed to a scale comp this coming weekend.)

The "tube fender" thing is still up in the air. Other than that I believe they are finalized

[Locked Up]

These have been posted to the site for guys to download.

SORRCA.com

[Doc Harley]

Well done...Doc

[TheScaleAddict]

Thanks!

[Dmircoffroaders]

Man this helps me a bunch!!! Im trying to get the crawling compition going here in the Des Moines Ia area and have been needing to find the rules and regs for some time thanks a bunch.

[chattinfarms]

Wow I was thinking about doing this next year but some of those rules are pretty extreme

[War Pig]

Originally Posted by chattinfarms

Wow I was thinking about doing this next year but some of those rules are pretty extreme

I'd love to hear what you think is so extreme. It's quite simple and fun once you get a feel for it.

[Turn'Nburn]

Chattinfarms, our rules for the Indiana Scale Series are a little more forgiving. You are more than welcome to bring your rig and join in the fun. Don't worry if it does or does not fit in.

[Rixxter]

Great to find rules. One quick question: Where does a modified Twin Hammers fit in? Mine has a shortened VW Beetle body and shortened stock roll cage that ends above the lower rear shock mounts. Since the stock TH has a VW pan-type "frame" I'm not sure what class it fits. Need help as I am about 90% done with my mods, and don't really want to have to start from scratch! Thanx

[doublej]

Originally Posted by Rixxter

Great to find rules. One quick question: Where does a modified Twin Hammers fit in? Mine has a shortened VW Beetle body and shortened stock roll cage that ends above the lower rear shock mounts. Since the stock TH has a VW pan-type "frame" I'm not sure what class it fits. Need help as I am about 90% done with my mods, and don't really want to have to start from scratch! Thanx

It will depend on a few measurements....
Check out the 2014 rules Here

[Silvertip]

Questions about this!

1 Scale off road RC! The idea of this event to to get a RC truck as close to as one can to it's scale counter part....... is this correct?

2 the course is a timed event run! so from the start to finish each racer is running against the clock is this correct?

3 In a full scale event! a roll over is a roll over, and your still running against the clock to get moving again! why in RC if it lands on it's wheels no points hit. but on it's side there is! your still running against the clock!

4 Why is there a penalty for using a winch for self recovery! or for getting clear of a section of trail, or up a steep climb. In full scale rigs that is why we run them! there are not there for decorations. the use of a winch is to avoid the roll over in the first place. ( winching takes time ) and your running against the clock! Since one is running against the clock. it should be drivers choice of loosing time to winch or risk the points hit for a flop or roll over! ( more scale)

5 rear steer or Dig.. The rigs with this mod should be running in an unlimited class. There use should not be penalized. They are very common in full scale rig's, and running them within there own class has no advantage over the others..

6 Over under gearing.. are you pulling the diffs apart at the tech area's and checking on them. making sure drivers are not using them! common in the RC, But make for a smashing disaster in full scale. This would also give a competitor a mechanical advantage over rig's without this mod! ( back ) to number 5.

I like what i am seeing and getting a true scale event going is great! scale trucks with scale equipment, used in a scale setting!

[TURTLE]

Read through the 2014 rules 1 or 2 more times. Yes there is time, but it is simply there as a limit, not a race against the clock. The challenge of these events is maneuvering through gates before you run out of time, not the fastest. The points exist to make the driver think before getting himself into a situation where a reverse, winch or other option besides driving forward is needed.

Also where is it written about gearing options being disallowed?

One more thing, this> ! is an exclamation point, this is used to show surprise or excitement. This> ? is a question mark, used for asking a question.

[War Pig]

Originally Posted by Silvertip

Questions about this!

1 Scale off road RC! The idea of this event to to get a RC truck as close to as one can to it's scale counter part....... is this correct?

A Scale Off Road RC Association event is just a way for guys (and gals) to get together with scale trucks of different performance levels and compete against each other.

2 the course is a timed event run! so from the start to finish each racer is running against the clock is this correct?

It's more about driving the course as cleanly as possible, not necessarily about time.

3 In a full scale event! a roll over is a roll over, and your still running against the clock to get moving again! why in RC if it lands on it's wheels no points hit. but on it's side there is! your still running against the clock!

Any time you have to reach down and roll yourself over with your hand or with your winch, it's a penalty. It makes people drive slower and safer if they know it's going to be a penalty when they roll over.

4 Why is there a penalty for using a winch for self recovery! or for getting clear of a section of trail, or up a steep climb. In full scale rigs that is why we run them! there are not there for decorations. the use of a winch is to avoid the roll over in the first place. ( winching takes time ) and your running against the clock! Since one is running against the clock. it should be drivers choice of loosing time to winch or risk the points hit for a flop or roll over! ( more scale)

Having penalties makes the driver think.

5 rear steer or Dig.. The rigs with this mod should be running in an unlimited class. There use should not be penalized. They are very common in full scale rig's, and running them within there own class has no advantage over the others..

They are actually in Class 3. There isn't a need right now for a 4th class and therefore we have a penalty for using dig or rear steer.

6 Over under gearing.. are you pulling the diffs apart at the tech area's and checking on them. making sure drivers are not using them! common in the RC, But make for a smashing disaster in full scale. This would also give a competitor a mechanical advantage over rig's without this mod! ( back ) to number 5.

Over/under gearing is legal in all classes and will continue to be. If you want to see if a rig has them all you need to do is pick it up, spin the front tires 5 full revolutions, and check to see if the front and rear spin the same amount of time, no need to pull a diff apart to check.

I like what i am seeing and getting a true scale event going is great! scale trucks with scale equipment, used in a scale setting!

Good, alot of time and thought has gone into these rules over the last 3 years. Try them out, it's addicting!

[sgtbham]

Originally Posted by War Pig

Good, alot of time and thought has gone into these rules over the last 3 years.

Sorry, I have to throw my $.02 in here and say thanks! I think the rules are in a real good place now.