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Old 08-26-2014, 09:12 AM   #101
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Default Re: Didn't finish all the courses. still in the finals. ECSC14

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Originally Posted by mjderstine View Post
yeah, this is blown way out of proportion for sure. the event was an insanely positive experience, and gave me a shot in the arm for new ideas. more new fun trucks to build. new ways to do out local comps.

this is and was only supposed to be a discussion based on experiences from an even that had a large national/international audience. Since i started the thread,i can take full responsibility for any of the negative things said about ECSC. i commend John, and his team on doing this event. it is by far an event that you should go to if you have any interest at in this hobby.

All rules are meant to be broken, and bent. its just human nature. Just be glad our hobby doesnt pull in too many Lawyers... we would all be screwed.

that being said. lets try to keep ECSC out of this, as this should be a rule discussion only. i understand using examples from the event because there were a lot of us there who are very passionate about out rigs, and our runs. we all want to be competitive and have an equal competitive advantage on our fellow competitors when it comes to the rules we all must obey.

John was correct lets move on from the ECSC references, and lets start talking about the rules. Ask how we can help SORCA, ask for town meetings, organize conference calls. lets try to make this happen as the off season of winter approaches.

I would like to ask a moderator to remoce the ECSC part from the title of this thread if possible.

Truth, ECSC was an absolute blast
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Old 08-26-2014, 09:26 AM   #102
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Default Re: Didn't finish all the courses. still in the finals.

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Old 08-26-2014, 09:28 AM   #103
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Default Re: Didn't finish all the courses. still in the finals.

beat me to it!
It said ECSC and then I clicked edit and it was gone!

Magic of the internet!
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Old 08-26-2014, 11:14 AM   #104
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Default Re: Didn't finish all the courses. still in the finals.

thanks guys. !!
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Old 08-26-2014, 08:48 PM   #105
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Default Re: Didn't finish all the courses. still in the finals. ECSC14

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Originally Posted by binaryterror View Post
Are you looking for the best crawler on 3 given courses only? Or the best crawler who showed up. If a really good driver has a repair put them out of a course and comes back and dominates the other 2, you think its fair he gets excluded?

Look at all racing...you can lose a qualifier, but win a race.

Jack of all trades, master of none...I thought we were looking for CHAMPIONS/ meaning best overall score.



Can you also address the terrible gate widths? 13" width for class 3, a class in which a new guy can bring in a wraith and barely squeeze in gates unless he is able to point nearly directly straight into them. Especially some tricky sliding or off camber gates. My comp truck is narrow, can turn better, and can use dig unpenalized gets 16" gate widths. That or every truck needs a minimum width in class 3 to make those gate widths fair for all drivers



Sad to think we have to be separate groups. Maybe I shouldn't be allowed to scale then...I am a comp guy still.

Pro Comp rules are more true to scale than Scale Comp rules. Scale points don't exist in the real world, safety is a concern not who can put in the most beer cans or baseball bats. Ever seen a class 3 type rig in person with glued or bolted on scale items just to earn some points?



This is directed more at SORCCA than your idea...

How'd you handle missing scale items? Odd I could have teched in much higher, removed things and no one cared EVER. I lost a few items, still NO MENTION I would be losing scale points.

Literally could have teched in with Chassis Steering and removed it for my much better servo on axle, no one would have ever known.



I agreee completely, and after reading the SORRCA rules, find it odd they are LESS scale realistic than well the Real 1:1 Rules.



So now a winch is mandatory? I thought that was an option. If courses degrade, that happens in REAL 1:1 crawling. Why does it appear scale guys want to be less like 1:1 trucks than Comp guys? Get on course quick if you worry about degrading. Just walking the courses you could literally move rocks to help your truck...



So Harley could win because he could pay me to crawl terrible and set a mega DNF point out...genius way to keep things fair and fun



Ahh more Comp trash talk. Keep up the great attitude, you'll be one of the scale guys eventually doing it alone when yet another group forms because SORCCA is unwilling to change for the better.

USRCCA had issues, but lets leave them as USRCCA issues and maybe learn from them. The elitist attitude can go both ways....just as ugly when a Scale guy acts better.



Minimum? Now no new crawlers can join. Sorry guys with your stock Axials, only people willing to spend a lot of money on scale items, or well you can make them. Otherwise, sorry we don't want to grow, only see the same people who can pay or make parts.

Show me a 1:1 class where when you add things to your truck you get more points? How many 1:1 rigs on a trail are packed with weird items, do they do it for Scale realism?

Or hey, my truck sucks at crawling, but if I add more scale points I have a chance. It's not about the truck or driving, just adding scale points. Seems like that is best left to Show and Shine.



Why only 40? Could be any number, but it needs to be there. If I DNF because a course designer runs a weird small truck in class 3 and all the Wraith based trucks can't fit. Doesn't sound like fun to us wraith owners. But I guess Wraiths aren't important....13" gate rules still exist.

----

So I have 2 complaints that aren't addressed:

1: 13" gate widths and yet nothing to make that fair or fun to all the drivers or all the current axles on the market.

2: Why is the show and shine AFTER classes have to run and get beat up? I mean some of the rigs entered are basically static models. How can anyone even compete with that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROWDY RACING View Post
You sir get it, my sentiments exactly.
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Originally Posted by krawlfreak View Post
This was so good I had to quote the WHOLE thing!

Two words..

TRAIL CLASS.
You guys should all think about being on the SORCCA rules committee just like anyone else that's passionate about this stuff should be. We just had an open thread asking for folks who were interested.

I won't bother to agree, or disagree with any of the points that are being made because when it really comes down to it there is no single set of perfect rules for scale competition; everyone has their own ideas for what it should be and that's part of what makes it great. We can only aim to do our best and work hard to keep things fun and interesting for everyone involved (on the rules side). We're fortunate in this community to have folks like Rckcrwlr, Warpig, Parker and many others who throw some really amazing and unique events.
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Old 08-27-2014, 06:50 PM   #106
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Default Re: Didn't finish all the courses. still in the finals.

Copy and pasted from the current SORRCA rules:
Quote:
DNF (Did Not Finish): (High score or point out +20 pts)
So would using a set point out and not "high Score" work or would this still be a problem?
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Old 08-27-2014, 08:58 PM   #107
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Default Re: Didn't finish all the courses. still in the finals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublej View Post
Copy and pasted from the current SORRCA rules:


So would using a set point out and not "high Score" work or would this still be a problem?
I think the 40 minus progress rule sounds fair.

Also, when tech (and scale points) is done and vehicles are issued their stickers (with truck number), why not give a small blank white sticker as well?

This way, before leaving tech, the adjusted scale points (50% or whatever is used) for that rig can be written with a sharpie.


Now, when a driver enters a course, everything is spelled out...
Judge can write down driver name, truck #, scale points, etc. Its all there.

If a DNF, 40 minus progress is used as a standard SORRCA wide


To keep things moving along:
1.) Give each driver their own score sheets to carry per class.
2.) Set up a table with a few guys, calculators and a ballot box.
3.) Drivers finish all courses, go the table, add up scores, driver initials score and turns in paper on the spot.


This driver/staff interaction will act as its own check and balance system.
All info is 100% verified when driver leaves the score turn-in station. There is no need to post standings prior to Top 5 or Podium announcements. Allowing the event organizers to maintain secrecy (and know with confidence the data is correct) of podium finishes for the awards ceremonies.





EDIT: Another thought.... Instead of 40pts. for a DNF, Use the MAX Scale points allowed for that particular class as the penalty number.

If Class 1 has a 60 scale point max, 50% is still "useable scale points"(-30pts), but the FULL 60 minus progress is used for DNF's . This way, its still a big penalty and wipes out the scale point advantage, but easy to remember from event to event. Just a thought.

Last edited by GiJoe; 08-27-2014 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 08-27-2014, 09:09 PM   #108
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Default Re: Didn't finish all the courses. still in the finals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiJoe View Post
I think the 40 minus progress rule sounds fair.

Also, when tech (and scale points) is done and vehicles are issued their stickers (with truck number), why not give a small blank white sticker as well?

This way, before leaving tech, the adjusted scale points (50% or whatever is used) for that rig can be written with a sharpie.


Now, when a driver enters a course, everything is spelled out...
Judge can write down driver name, truck #, scale points, etc. Its all there.

If a DNF, 40 minus progress is used as a standard SORRCA wide


To keep things moving along:
1.) Give each driver their own score sheets to carry per class.
2.) Set up a table with a few guys, calculators and a ballot box.
3.) Drivers finish all courses, go the table, add up scores, driver initials score and turns in paper on the spot.


This driver/staff interaction will act as its own check and balance system.
All info is 100% verified when driver leaves the score turn-in station. There is no need to post standings prior to Top 5 or Podium announcements. Allowing the event organizers to maintain secrecy (and know with confidence the data is correct) of podium finishes for the awards ceremonies.
I think that is all great stuff. But those are event guidelines, not SORCCA rules.

There is yet to be a section within SORCCA that dictates how a national event should be run.
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Old 08-27-2014, 11:00 PM   #109
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Default Re: Didn't finish all the courses. still in the finals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiJoe View Post
I think the 40 minus progress rule sounds fair.
Me too... because of this.

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Originally Posted by MudHoncho View Post
I see it as this..... I run and let's say I am doing good but then literally get WEDGED in between 2 rocks. Close to the end but then DNF'd due to time etc etc. so I take my DNF along with its hefty price tag and move on to the other courses where btw I don't DNF and do quite well to land a top 5 spot. That hefty price tag isn't fair enough? Do we really need to add the instant loss factor to it as well?
But I see the other side as well.
Maybe it should be a sliding scale...
just random examples
If you are on gate 9 or 10 it's a 30 point penalty.
If you are on gate 6 or 5 it's a 50 point penalty.
If you are on gate 3 to 0 it's a 100 point penalty.

I also feel DNS should be really expensive.
It's one thing to time out or break down during your run but not being able to cross the start line on your own power should be more than 20+ the DNF.
I'd say at least 200... all 10 gates x 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiJoe View Post
Also, when tech (and scale points) is done and vehicles are issued their stickers (with truck number), why not give a small blank white sticker as well?

This way, before leaving tech, the adjusted scale points (50% or whatever is used) for that rig can be written with a sharpie.

Now, when a driver enters a course, everything is spelled out...
Judge can write down driver name, truck #, scale points, etc. Its all there.
Yup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiJoe View Post


To keep things moving along:
1.) Give each driver their own score sheets to carry per class.
2.) Set up a table with a few guys, calculators and a ballot box.
3.) Drivers finish all courses, go the table, add up scores, driver initials score and turns in paper on the spot.
Brilliant!
If a laptop or smart phone is present (easy) we could also give drivers their position on the fly. Just enter the numbers and have an auto ranking system.
I'm sure someone could do that... I'm pretty sure a guy in our club could do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiJoe View Post
EDIT: Another thought....
hmmm, not sold on that one. Class 3 often is worth less scale points than Class 1 but much tougher a course.
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Old 08-28-2014, 06:36 AM   #110
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Default Re: Didn't finish all the courses. still in the finals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublej View Post
Copy and pasted from the current SORRCA rules:


So would using a set point out and not "high Score" work or would this still be a problem?
I think a set point out would help everyone. What number that is will be the question.

40 is USRCCA, but that may be too low for the scale trucks and still building tough courses.

I like 80 myself as I've thought about it. That's quite a bit of penalties so most should barely ever see a point out DNF, but its a fixed number to base time out penalties from, 80 - progress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiJoe View Post
1.) Give each driver their own score sheets to carry per class.
2.) Set up a table with a few guys, calculators and a ballot box.
3.) Drivers finish all courses, go the table, add up scores, driver initials score and turns in paper on the spot.
My concern is honesty. Yes most of us are honest, but you may get a few guys as the hobby grows who may make alterations to their own sheet/card.

I do like having my own card, even if the same system is used to write and collect scores. This way, again I know how I'm doing and can talk to others and get a feel on how I am doing. Even if its not an event official card, just something I have. USRCCA events have done this for the big events and its a really cool memento to have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TURTLE View Post
There is yet to be a section within SORCCA that dictates how a national event should be run.
I would have thought this would have been done, being there are National size events happening and the events are growing in size as well as count.

Plus then smaller events can run based on the same rules/guidelines and help get the local drivers out to the big events without a confusion on how the rules are different. We always held our Comp events to mimic the big events, so those drivers who attend a big event understand things that are done.
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Old 08-28-2014, 08:39 AM   #111
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Default Didn't finish all the courses. still in the finals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiJoe View Post
I think the 40 minus progress rule sounds fair.



Also, when tech (and scale points) is done and vehicles are issued their stickers (with truck number), why not give a small blank white sticker as well?



This way, before leaving tech, the adjusted scale points (50% or whatever is used) for that rig can be written with a sharpie.





Now, when a driver enters a course, everything is spelled out...

Judge can write down driver name, truck #, scale points, etc. Its all there.









To keep things moving along:

1.) Give each driver their own score sheets to carry per class.

2.) Set up a table with a few guys, calculators and a ballot box.

3.) Drivers finish all courses, go the table, add up scores, driver initials score and turns in paper on the spot.





This driver/staff interaction will act as its own check and balance system.

All info is 100% verified when driver leaves the score turn-in station. There is no need to post standings prior to Top 5 or Podium announcements. Allowing the event organizers to maintain secrecy (and know with confidence the data is correct) of podium finishes for the awards .

We just have a dedicated score keeper who puts everything in excel once they complete tech and anyone who attended King Of Gurus 14 can tell you how smoothly that went. At the end of the day I think how scale points/ scores are tracked should be up to the organizers of the event - I'd hate to see this as a black and white SORCAA rule.

Last edited by sgtbham; 08-28-2014 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 08-30-2014, 07:30 AM   #112
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Default Re: Didn't finish all the courses. still in the finals.

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Originally Posted by sgtbham View Post
I'd hate to see this as a black and white SORCAA rule.
I feel this should be a SORRCA standard. Heres why:

Every comp I've been to this year has used SORRCA rules for the trucks, but the scoring protocol has been a little different at each event. Nothing major, but for instance: Team KNK and KOG had similar score sheets. ECSC had score sheets with a section for "progress". KOG charged +1 for winching, ECSC charged +3 for winching. None of the events I just mentioned had a defined "penalty" for DNF's...At least not one that was passed down to judges. As a judge, I had people asking me how a DNF was scored. I had no clue...had to tell them to check with the event organizers each time.

Again, little nit-picky details, but I feel a "Standard" SORRCA score sheet will help fledgling groups abide by National Standards. Thereby making it easier and less stressful in the long run for new guys who may feel intimidated participating in a large event.

If standards and procedures for scoring are the same at local / state levels as well as National Levels, that just keeps everyone on the same page across the board.
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Old 08-30-2014, 09:03 AM   #113
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Default Re: Didn't finish all the courses. still in the finals.

Since there will be sorrca rules available through RC ORVA , we can ensure that score sheets and scoring is consistent worldwide if sorrca gives us the rules to make it concrete.
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Old 08-30-2014, 10:01 AM   #114
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Default Re: Didn't finish all the courses. still in the finals.

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Originally Posted by GiJoe View Post
If standards and procedures for scoring are the same at local / state levels as well as National Levels, that just keeps everyone on the same page across the board.
Standards are the same - Within the rules.
But local (state,city) are allowed to change rules as their club needs fit. This allows a broader field of players because a lot of guys will never travel to a national event.
You answered your own issue IMHO - these are new events and new groups and clubs. No matter how much things are written out or black and white, there will be problems. Its part of life.
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Old 09-01-2014, 09:50 AM   #115
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Default Re: Didn't finish all the courses. still in the finals.

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Plus then smaller events can run based on the same rules/guidelines and help get the local drivers out to the big events without a confusion on how the rules are different. We always held our Comp events to mimic the big events, so those drivers who attend a big event understand things that are done.

THIS.

We can practice and freecrawl and leave the course set up and BS all day long. But on the course on the clock it's how it would be at a national event.
Even when I was beginning I knew rules were rules and the club was preparing for the big show.
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