No Fogging or Hogging

[Fishmaxx]

After attending a couple high level scale events I must say I really enjoy a lot of the aspects of the events.

It's well established that FOGGING (Foot Of God) is not acceptable. It's not allowed to use your foot a a winch point or be used as part of the driving surface. What perplexes me is the extent HOGGING (Hand Of God) allowed specifically when it comes to the way recovery assist vehicles are handled.

I have seen recovery vehicles held down CPR style with 2 hands with body weight, held in place to sheer vertical rock faces and trees, and held tug of war style by the bumpers.

It's cool to watch vehicle assisted recoveries during competition, but in IMO something seems a little off when there seems to be no rules in how a recovery vehicle can be handled.

If a recovery vehicle can't be driven into the position and hold its position WITHOUT HOGGING the it shouldn't be allowed. Just my 2 cents

[Nappy]

At a few events I attended, I noticed that too. I was new, so didn't say anything then. Now, after a couple years and seeing a lot of different things at different comps, I agree... I wouldn't use a knee behind so no roll back, or shoe laces, etc. I think the vehicle needs to stay put by itself as you set the winch up and should only be using what's available naturally...

Some comps I've attended actually have said ahead of time that's not allowed, but most don't.

[ROLANDROCKSHOP]

The course designer should put a winch point if no Natural winch point is available..example a metal/wood post in the ground should suffice.
Although a land anchor works wonders.. ;)

I know ive put down a wooden post at the top of a hill if you couldnt wheel up it,so the drivers had a winch point to attach to.

And yes,the Recovery truck should be held in place by its own weight if its pulling winch duties or by tethered to a tree/post/winch point.

No HOG or FOG..

Drivers should practice at recovery work...its just as important as anything else in the scale scene.

Knowing proper recovery skills can make it Sooo much easier in crunch time.


good example..
..at the Florida G6 i was at a guy got hung up on the scale bridge and it couldnt be helped but pull it off by hand(HOG)and reset at beginning of the bridge. That or risk tearing up the bridge further in trying to recover it.

That would be the only acceptable instance i can see, if the course design/obstacle would become compromised in a recovery effort.

[Fishmaxx]

I guess I should have specified No FREE FOG or HOG on either Comp Vehicle or Recovery Vehicle.


Note: It's common to place recovery vehicles for some types of courses, but once placed the recovery vehicle should be able to hold its position on its own.

[doublej]

I've never seen an issue with anything mentioned. Course design will never be perfect and we know that judging can be a long and taxing job. But even if a judge makes a mistake, so long as it is a mistake made for All - then the field is still even.

Now some other things to think about......
-A 1:1 truck used as a anchor point often will not hold its own. We are talking about comp situations with more extreme terrain right?
-Also the Assisted Recovery is up to the judge, it was made for guys without winches and the points awarded was set high to help encourage the use of a winch.
-Just like Shoe winching.... Some areas just do not have anything to winch off of. Yes a course designer should keep this in mind but how many times have you built a course then watched someone pick a line that you never saw.


All in All - I think your thinking too hard.... Just sayin.

[SirChirpAlot]

I'm new to comp side of things. Last comp i went to was more a fun comp. But Still went with no hand of god.
The recovery side of things was very simple. IF u had winch great u can use it. If u didn't and u had tow strap then the judge would flip u or pull u the length of rope.
I found it funny how people that started with 1 foot tow rope ended with 2 or even 3 foot tow rope....

But what i didn't see was other people using 2nd truck to recover or help someone else winch up. Main reason for not doing this would have been time.
Myself i used my Winch alot but thats just the way i enjoy running my truck.

I have gone out for fun crawls and come across a great spot were 90% of the trucks cant make it and just park my truck with pull pal on strap to my rear bumper to hold my truck and then i help winch up the others. But it takes up alot of time.

[KBrog]

This why scalers don't like comp class. They can't follow simple rules like a proper roll over. Then claim the rules are to complicated. That's just my take on things and is not directed at any one personally, just a broad statement.

[doublej]

Originally Posted by KBrog

This why scalers don't like comp class. They can't follow simple rules like a proper roll over. Then claim the rules are to complicated. That's just my take on things and is not directed at any one personally, just a broad statement.

Well thats a damn broad statement to be throwing around......
I know the 100 plus people in PA 2 years running that loved comping with there scalers, or the same numbers at Utah Champs this past year, or even the groups of locals that get together once a month in cities from Cali to England.... All to dodge cones and have some fun.

There will be opinions of the rules in anything you do - Scalers just happens to be a huge group with a lot of new and seasoned hands. SO you see it all atm.

But being negative doesn't seem to help much

[KBrog]

Not being negative at all. Stating a broad observation. Some care more for rules and realism than others. When you have someone who cares for realism, then someone who does not, and flips there truck over while the truck just happens to move 2 feet and ends up pointing in the right direction after the roll over and the person laughs it off and says ( it's just toy trucks hahaha ). It kinda puts the two drivers on a different playing field. No negativity intended. I have been on both sides of the field in my totally made up scenario here.

[Szczerba]

I am going to chime in on this, in general.
I have been comp crawling since 2007 and was all about it, then it got exhausting. Same formats, same guys doing all the work, same guys bitching about what was wrong, tempers flaring over r/c trucks etc, etc.

I attended the East Coast Scale Challenge this year and was one of the few comp guys there. I was the lame calling out penalties and snickering at guys touching their trucks at first. Then I got to observing and thinking, no one else is acting like the douche I was portraying. I looked around harder and saw guys talking and enjoying themselves and driving their trucks on fun, challenging courses. Sure, some judges were letting drivers hold their trucks or whatever, it wasn't a big deal. We were having fun just getting to drive trucks. This big scale comp was a lot more fun and a lot more laid back than any comp event I have ever attended. There were super competitive guys following all the rules but there were also guys that had never competed before that didnt know all the rules. To me, this laid back format of not scrutinizing every little call made it much more enjoyable for the new and old attendees.

[KBrog]

Originally Posted by Szczerba

I am going to chime in on this, in general.
I have been comp crawling since 2007 and was all about it, then it got exhausting. Same formats, same guys doing all the work, same guys bitching about what was wrong, tempers flaring over r/c trucks etc, etc.

I attended the East Coast Scale Challenge this year and was one of the few comp guys there. I was the lame calling out penalties and snickering at guys touching their trucks at first. Then I got to observing and thinking, no one else is acting like the douche I was portraying. I looked around harder and saw guys talking and enjoying themselves and driving their trucks on fun, challenging courses. Sure, some judges were letting drivers hold their trucks or whatever, it wasn't a big deal. We were having fun just getting to drive trucks. This big scale comp was a lot more fun and a lot more laid back than any comp event I have ever attended. There were super competitive guys following all the rules but there were also guys that had never competed before that didnt know all the rules. To me, this laid back format of not scrutinizing every little call made it much more enjoyable for the new and old attendees.

That totally works if everyone knows the format. But at the end of the day what do you do? Give everyone a participant ribbon? I know I might sound harsh, but I truly have no ill intent at all. I am trying to understand the different skill, and or care levels of each driver in the event. But maybe that is what you are talking about is that it works for all levels????

[Szczerba]

It just goes to show that some can take it serious and some don't have to. It's about motives, winning events or having fun or a mixture of the two. The guys that don't know all the rules will get there in time and probably won't win their first scale comp anyways, so what's the big deal? The guys that are serious will follow all the rules and do what they do, knowing they can be competitive and still possibly win the comp if it worked out.

This crawling sport is all about getting people to have fun with toy trucks, that's it. You can have fun by winning or you can have fun by just being there. The laid back rules and judges seemed to work just great at ECSC for both to happen.

[doublej]

Szczerba said it perfectly....
You will always have a couple here and there that want to be negative or complain - but the vast majority are having a blast, competitive or not.

[801RYAN]

Great topic. Our local club does a fair amount of hogging while winching. hell it was common at SWSC last year, But I never really thought about it the way you are. I mean I totally understand your point at the same time who wants to risk putting their rig up to be the winch Truck to have it pulled down and possibly broken. I am going to try to see if I can limit the amount of winch hogging that goes on at our local comps..

Just a response to the second topic that's been brought up in this thread at our local comps we used two classes Pro and sportsman, sportsmen get a lot of leeway, tips, timeouts to explan rules...pros we're just plain mean to. Thanks again for the topic

[Fishmaxx]

How about this...

If you winch off NATURAL or EXISTING terrain it's a 3 Point Penelty

If you winch off another vehicle, shoe, or whatever else you can think of unless it's put the specifically by the course designer or comp organizer to be a winch point it's 5 Point Penelty.

I am not trying too complicate things, but I do believe learning how to use a pullpal/hook requires more practice and precision than clipping a carbinier to a buddies bumper. I am not saying one is more real than the other.

For me as long as they are the same penalty points my pull pal will be used for Functional Scale Points and nothing else.

[bmuzz1]

I like the idea Jon and will bring it up, just not sure we have enough time to add anything else this year. We'll see what happens.

[chino63]

Reading this, I see some valid points. Being a comp and scale guy, I agree with the issue of fog/hog on recovery vehicles. Although I don't think you should be able to hold it down, I'm fine with it as long as it's not (like said before) to the side of a tree or side of a sheer cliff, etc. Not everything is perfect but we should all try to keep things as realistic as possible. The scale competition scene has evolved for sure, it's more reminiscent of the old comp days than a scale comp in my eyes. Don't care for the direction it's headed but I will still attend for the fun of it. Key word is "fun".

[Fishmaxx]

Thanks guys.
I am just into the Comp Day experience way more than I am into the truck tech junk. You guys have a thankless job managing the classes.

Enough of the ass kissing
The SORRCA Rules committee made it a penalty ever time a hook falls out and needed to be reconnected for a reason. Why take the skill of winch management out of the game?

If clipping to a winch buddy or truck bumper doesn't require the same skill as connecting a pull pal to a tiny crack why make it the same penalty?