Spirit of Scale (Please...not an argument)

[GiJoe]

I really want to nail this term with the general community here as well as the SORRCA officials.

"Spirit of Scale" is a term used too often, without a clear definition. However, like a religion, there are many opinions and variables. All are right, and all are wrong, depending on who's definition.

I applaud the SORRCA committee. You have a tough job.


As a tech official for sever events, I struggle with the "Spirit" term. I tend to tech based on "Black and White" as rules for that particular year are written. If it says NO, then NO. If YES, Yes... If not clear? Then it's fair game because everyone interprets what is UNWRITTEN differently.

The last thing I want to do is reject someones hard work and passion, and innovation due to my perception of an unknown "Spirit".

And likewise, I don't want to be told my stuff isn't allowed to compete simply because it doesn't fit your personal view.


So I ask, can we at least clarify one thing?
Should the "Spirit" encompass the total appearance of the vehicle? As sitting on a table while you are looking from say 10 feet away? "Yes, that truck looks realistic." Or, "No, it looks like Chainlink and is banned".

Or, are gonna nitpick each and every component as to how the " Spirit " applies to say a framerails, or link, or building material, etc...


I know this isn't easy, but I'd be happy if I, as a tech official, could stand back and say "OK, this rig meets all rules as written. And from afar, appears to resemble a 1:1 vehicle."

Any chance this viewpoint could work across the country? Or even World wide?

[snapon boy]

I think that is a good question. Also to the person who drives a long ways and told you can't participate it is a turn off.

[baconbits]

Depending on the interpretation anyone's rig could be illegal.
I.e.
Plastic axles, plastic links, brushless motors, lexan bodies, ect.... if I travel across country or internationally I don't want/can't efford to be turned away due to "feelings"


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[Highmark]

Good post- I'll take a stab at this. I think it's important that we as a community talk about stuff like this, not just to get everyone on the same page, but also so folks understand the though process and history behind why rules are the way the are.

Originally Posted by GiJoe

I really want to nail this term with the general community here as well as the SORRCA officials.

"Spirit of Scale" is a term used too often, without a clear definition. However, like a religion, there are many opinions and variables. All are right, and all are wrong, depending on who's definition.

Originally Posted by GiJoe

As a tech official for sever events, I struggle with the "Spirit" term. I tend to tech based on "Black and White" as rules for that particular year are written. If it says NO, then NO. If YES, Yes... If not clear? Then it's fair game because everyone interprets what is UNWRITTEN differently.

The last thing I want to do is reject someones hard work and passion, and innovation due to my perception of an unknown "Spirit".

And likewise, I don't want to be told my stuff isn't allowed to compete simply because it doesn't fit your personal view.

I've talked to a lot of people about this, and some of the other rules that appear vague, or appear to have "grey areas".

The current rules were never intended cut and dry, what people often interpret as grey areas is often language that is designed to recognize that all rigs are different and to attempt to be as accommodating as possible while also giving the whole "scale comp" thing some structure.

The thing is, you can treat scale rules like comp rules. On the comp side they can say "all body panels must be a minimum of A" X B" X C"", on the scale side we deal with how closely the community perceives the appearance of a replica is to either the real deal, or what the real deal might look like. As an added layer of complexity, we also try to give competitors credit "credit" (scale points) for making steps to make the rig more scale in appearance.

So in those ways the rules will always be inherently up to the interpretation of the competition organizers. There is no hard and fast measurement for how "scale" one of our rigs is.

So in summary, the intention behind the "spirit" language is to back up organizers in the event that someone is basically taking advantage of the rules (in particular scale points). This is a hobby, the current rule book pertaining to vehicle requirements and scale points is two pages (I think). If we wanted to blow it up to 100+ pages and take care of all the grey areas I'm sure we could make that happen, but I don't think it would be in the interest of the sport or competitors on the whole.

Originally Posted by GiJoe

I applaud the SORRCA committee. You have a tough job.

Hey thanks.

Originally Posted by GiJoe

So I ask, can we at least clarify one thing?
Should the "Spirit" encompass the total appearance of the vehicle? As sitting on a table while you are looking from say 10 feet away? "Yes, that truck looks realistic." Or, "No, it looks like Chainlink and is banned".

Or, are gonna nitpick each and every component as to how the " Spirit " applies to say a framerails, or link, or building material, etc...

Yes, you should look at the whole of the vehicle. An example is a stock Honcho. It's totally legal in class two, but I doubt many folks would consider the axle mounted stearing servo as scale.

Really the only time this should come up is if someone is trying to pull something egregious and is basically being a dick.

Originally Posted by GiJoe

I know this isn't easy, but I'd be happy if I, as a tech official, could stand back and say "OK, this rig meets all rules as written. And from afar, appears to resemble a 1:1 vehicle."

Any chance this viewpoint could work across the country? Or even World wide?

I think that's fair to say. If you're the organizer / judge / tech person or whatever that's certainly your prerogative.

[Highmark]

Originally Posted by baconbits

Depending on the interpretation anyone's rig could be illegal.
I.e.
Plastic axles, plastic links, brushless motors, lexan bodies, ect.... if I travel across country or internationally I don't want/can't efford to be turned away due to "feelings"


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If I'm spending my time, money, and talent to organize a big comp for you to enjoy shouldn't it be my right to turn you away or not give you scale points if you're trying to be slimey? Its far more likely that some one try to get away with make believe scale items than it is for an organizer to start a bunch of drama with someone for no reason other than to be a jerk.

Also, if you think you might have problems ASK. If you want to go to nationals post a picture in the nationals thread or PM Bmuzz and ask if it's ok in advance.

[johnnyh66]

I'm of the mind set that these are toy trucks.
If something is foggy in the gray areas, it gets a pass... never a turned away.
If it's a blatant disregard for the rules... that's different.

I was once told that my C2 Buxom Melons wasn't scale because it didn't fit in scale wise with the rest of the 1:10 scale scx10's... fortunately it was from a competitor and not a judge.

[micro racer]

Specifically relating to something like Buxom Melons, I believe that "scale" can be when something is not necessarily realistic, but is built in a realistic fashion or is not blatantly UN-realistic.

[War Pig]

Everyone knows what the "spirit of scale" is, there are just a handful of guys that want to push other people's buttons or make a point at an event. The spirit of scale rule is there to protect the organizer. I'm guessing that over 99% of the time, nobody is going to be turned away from an event because their rig isn't scale enough. Now earning scale points is different. You don't have to have scale points to compete, and organizers need to have a way to to just say "no, you don't get points for that". The best thing to do is to post pictures and questions to an event's page and find out if it's OK before you spend time and money to go there. Not trying to be an ass is helpful too.

[baconbits]

Originally Posted by Highmark

If I'm spending my time, money, and talent to organize a big comp for you to enjoy shouldn't it be my right to turn you away or not give you scale points if you're trying to be slimey? Its far more likely that some one try to get away with make believe scale items than it is for an organizer to start a bunch of drama with someone for no reason other than to be a jerk.

Also, if you think you might have problems ASK. If you want to go to nationals post a picture in the nationals thread or PM Bmuzz and ask if it's ok in advance.

I can't seem to locate the nationals thread.

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[War Pig]

Competitions and Events - A.S.T.R. presents 2016 RC4WD Copper State Scale Nationals at RCCrawler.com

[bongsten]

I think the scale points system is what breaks up the scale or not arguement. The stock honcho example is awesome! It is a truck someone can go buy and compete with at scale comps, but it lacks scale points big time. The other competitors with highly detailed scale appearing rigs will do far better because of the scale points they have. I believe the "spirit" of this is just getting out and crawling/ competing with a legal truck, the scale points make the difference in the end for competition. Just my 2 cents i love that SORRCA exists and my club holds to the rules to make the comps fair and equal thanks so much to all the committee members for making such a bad ass organization!!

[War Pig]

Love to hear stuff like that. Thanks!

[baconbits]

Originally Posted by War Pig

Competitions and Events - A.S.T.R. presents 2016 RC4WD Copper State Scale Nationals at RCCrawler.com

Thanks. Hope to see you their. And I hope my rig fits the "spirit of scale" it's a 30+ hour drive. "Thumbsup"

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[badhoopty]

bump an old thread but scale spirit also applies to attitude as well. ive seen people with badass scale trucks who are very good drivers be downright dickish at comps.

seeing and dealing with that kind of behavior kills my spirit. real quick. if being #1 is more rewarding than making friends and having a good time, you do not have scale spirit nomatter how nice your builds are.

[War Pig]

Originally Posted by badhoopty

bump an old thread but scale spirit also applies to attitude as well. ive seen people with badass scale trucks who are very good drivers be downright dickish at comps.

seeing and dealing with that kind of behavior kills my spirit. real quick. if being #1 is more rewarding than making friends and having a good time, you do not have scale spirit nomatter how nice your builds are.

I thought I was pretty nice at ECSC!?!

[Jeepiac]

Originally Posted by badhoopty

bump an old thread but scale spirit also applies to attitude as well. ive seen people with badass scale trucks who are very good drivers be downright dickish at comps.

seeing and dealing with that kind of behavior kills my spirit. real quick. if being #1 is more rewarding than making friends and having a good time, you do not have scale spirit nomatter how nice your builds are.

Exactly! He who has the most fun is the winner. Hell, I call my own gates when a judge doesn't see I hit one.... I really need to stop doing that

[GiJoe]

Originally Posted by War Pig

I thought I was pretty nice at ECSC!?!

I got along with you just fine! Had a blast!

[badhoopty]

Originally Posted by War Pig

I thought I was pretty nice at ECSC!?!

naw man you aint one of the jerky boys.

you know the types im talking about tho.

[viper6171]

i always go to have fun .....my rigs may not have all the extras or have thye latest parts but i still have fun.
the spirit of scale alows us as big kids to go out and play with toy trucks and have fun , i have met some wonderful people at events that i go to and not all of them have perfectly scale vehicles ( but damn they had fun )

the grey areas allow us to have fun ...if we try to make the grey areas non-existant by making more rules then i see the fun dissapearing as well as the number of people going to events ........that would be a sad day indeed .

[XRAYRON]

So even a lexan body isn't allowed? I'm not finished yet but when I am it will technically be a hard body lol. I know electronics and all needs to be hidden and I need a frame mounted servo.