Scale Rules/Scoring/Judging/Teams discussion

[cykb4117]

Hello All,

I wanted to start a thread so questions/comments could be answered and problems fixed. The comp was awesome but I think we can improve our judging, courses, and rules.

I'll start with scale points. Below modified version for everyone to look over that we can modify and change. We may have to just put the entire rules in here after we collectively decide on what we want to modify


Class Descriptions:

Class-1 “Street"
• Description - A street legal off-road vehicle that you would drive to work or the trail head and outfit like an expedition vehicle such as the Camel Trophy truck D90 rigs.

Class-2 “Trail”
• Description - A stock vehicle that has been modified to become a capable trail rated rig and is not necessarily street legal .

Class-3 “Modified”
• Description - An off-road vehicle that you would build from the ground up and might see in a TTC/KOH type competition.

General Vehicle Details
• You are encouraged to go above and beyond to make your truck as scale as possible.
• Vehicles must resemble a real 1:1 rig. It will be up to the collective group to vote on whether a questionable rig is accepted or not.
• Tire size will be determined by advertised manufacturer specs (tires without available specs will be measured off the truck as mounted on the wheel laid flat).
•Tire modification:
Class-1 Street. No external tire modification is allowed.
Class-2 Trail. Tire lugs may be removed, siped, grooved and/or trimmed.
Class-3 Modified. Tire modifications are permitted, as long as the tire is no larger than 5.75" in diameter measured off the vehicle laying on it's side, and all tire parts are from a legal scale tire.
• You must run a rail chassis (for example: Bruiser/Mountaineer, SCX-10, Reign RC K2-3S, 3L, 4, 5, MFM, X-Trail, CR-01, UTE, etc...) No TVP (twin vertical plate) chassis' or frame rail extensions on a TVPs. The exception to this rule is the Tamiya CC-01 or TA-02 ,(Hummer, S-10, Ford F-150 and Toyota Hilux)and Modified class Tubers.
• 4-wheel steering or dig is allowed in modified class only (you must choose 1 per course).
• No "Motor On Axle" (MOA) of any kind. All motors, transmissions, and other electronics (other than steering servos) must be chassis or frame mounted. Your axles must be driven by one transmission or transfer case and a minimum of two driveshafts (except CC-01, TA-02, etc) No separate throttle control of drive shafts or axles.
• There are no wheel size distinctions. For example, you can run a 1.55, 1.9, 2.0 or 2.2 rim in any class. Wheels larger than 2.2 are not allowed in any class and no short course style wheels with split diameters.
• Spare tires must be within 1/4" diameter of your drive tires to receive points.
• Any functional recovery tools you wish to use during your run, you must carry it on your rig at all times. Pull pal, and sand ladders....
**EXCLUDING TOW STRAP
• Winching can only be performed off of natural objects (i.e. trees, rocks, etc...), other vehicles, or stakes supplied by the course builder.
** All gates will have a winch point(NEEDS REVISION)
• All vehicles should have the motor, transmission, and electronics covered and hidden when viewed from the top and sides. Batteries must be chassis mounted and should be hidden from view.
• Courses will be tough and made to push the scale vehicle's limits. This is to encourage competitors to improve their rigs from one event to another.
• Winches are HIGHLY recommended!!!!! Expect to use a winch.
• Water proofing is HIGHLY recommended!!!!! Expect your rig to get wet.


Tire Ban List:

• Losi Claws (all sizes, and types)
• Hot Bodies Rovers (all sizes)
• Hot Bodies Sedonas
• HPI Rock Grabbers
• Panther Cougars
• Panther Leopards
• Pro-Line Chisels (all sizes)
• RC4WD Rocklin
• RC4WD X-Locks (all sizes)
• RC4WD Crazy Crawlers
• Imex Skulls and Bones
• Losi Bashers

Tires should be scale appearing, if it is questionable have it reviewed before the event, or plan to run a different tire. As new competition specific tires are released this list may be updated.
** If you have a tire question post it here!


Class-1 “Street” Details:

• Vehicle must have a windshield that fills the entire windshield frame.
• Full width bumpers are required on the front and rear of the vehicle. Bumpers that are molded into the body qualify. A rear bumper is not required on a flatbed, but adding one to the flatbed will gain the additional scale points. (Bumpers are measured from the outsides and must be the width of your windshield).
• Wheels must be aligned within the body wheel wells (center of wheels to center of wheel wells +/- 1/2 inch total combined)
• The vehicles body must be mostly intact. Only mild trimming such as flairs & removing a hardtop are allowed. If the hardtop is removed, a full interior is required (no extreme trimming of bodies allowed *See below.)
• The tread of the tires cannot extend outside of the wheel wells more then 1/2 of the tread width, flairs can be added to reach min. spec.
• Vehicle must run a full length rail chassis (The rail chassis must be as long as the vehicles wheelbase)(Tamiya CC-01 chassis are allowed).
• Truggies are not allowed, flatbeds with full length rail chassis are allowed. The bed must be as wide as the cab the entire length of the bed. Cab only not allowed.
• Tires can never extend beyond the body’s bumpers or the rear of any truck bed. (Any stingers, fairleads, shackles, bolts, etc are not considered part of a bumper when determining this.)
• Dovetailing is not allowed.
• Sectioning or narrowing of the body is not allowed.
• Bobbing a truck bed is allowed, but must follow all body specs.
• Boat sides are not allowed.
• 106mm / 4.19" Max tire size including spares.
• Gates will be a minimum of 11" wide (so mind your width).

Class-2 “Trail” Details:

• Body/cage work must be at least 4.5" tall (including boat sides) and the inside of the front tires cannot extend outside of the width of the cab at the doors.
• A front bumper is required and must be mounted to the vehicle's rail chassis and must be wider than the outside of the chassis rails (chassis cross rails do not count as bumpers).
• You must run a full rail chassis, and the chassis (including bumpers) must be 3" longer than the wheelbase (this includes a chassis with a truggy rear frame).
•Truggies are allowed, but you must replace the ladder frame behind the cab with tube, and the truggy rails must extend past the rear axle pumpkin to be legal. The bed must have a roll bar hoop and integrated shock mounts. It also must be a structural part of the rear of the vehicle. (If your bed does not meet ALL of the preceding criteria, it does not count as a truggy bed).
• Flatbeds that run the full length of the rail chassis are allowed. The bed must be as wide as the cab the entire length of the bed.
• 2 of the 3 following modifications are allowed:
- Dovetailing the rear *a truggy/tube bed that is narrower than the cab counts as a dovetail* (1/2 the width of the widest part of the cab).
- Boat sides (no more than 1.25" measured vertically from the bottom of the skid).
- Pinching the front (2/3 the width of the widest part of the cab).
• 120mm / 4.75" max tire size with a 2.2 max rim size including spare.
• Gates will be a minimum of 12" wide (so mind your width).

Class-3 “Modified” Details:
• 146mm / 5.75" max tire size with a 2.2 max rim size (including spare).
• A bumper is not required, but to be counted for points it must be mounted to the vehicle's chassis and wider than the the chassis rails (chassis cross rails do not count as bumpers).
• Gates will be a minimum of 13" wide.
• Class 3 body minimum specs:
Rock sliders, mirrors, etc do not count in these measurements:
- The distance between the inside of the tires (of any axle) can be no greater than 1.25" more than the width of the body at the doors. *Example* (7" inside-of-tire to inside-of-tire = body must be 5.75" wide).
- The body must be at least 5" wide from the front to the rear of the doors.
- Tire height can be no more than 0.5" taller than cab height. Height is measured from the bottom of the skid to the top of the bodywork/tube not including a light bar. (5.5" tire = 5" tall from bottom of skid to top of cab/tubework)
- Body must be at least as long as the wheelbase of the vehicle.
• Body modifications including, but not limited to, pinched front, dove-tailing and boat-siding are permitted as long as the final dimensions comply with the minimum size rules.

[cykb4117]

Scale Points:

Scale points are to be awarded at 100% of a vehicles total value (rounded down if necessary

*No items can be counted more than once*
*Functional items must be functional. Winch and lights must work*

Bed: Not available to tubers.
• Tube bed OR flatbed: metal -3, plastic -1
• Bed mounted headache rack or roll bar: metal -2 plastic -1

•Truggy/back halved truck: metal -4, plastic -2
(Must replace the ladder frame behind the cab with tube, and must extend past the rear axle pumpkin to be legal. The bed must have a roll bar hoop and integrated shock mounts. It also must be a structural part of the rear of the vehicle. (If your bed does not meet ALL of the preceding criteria, it does not count as a truggy bed).Tube bed, roll bar, shock mount points not available in addition to truggy bed points.

Tuber: metal -8, plastic -4
A tuber consists of a complete body structure where the front, cab, and rear sections are comprised entirely of structural tubework.
Tube bed, roll bar, internal cage, and shock mounts points not available in addition to tuber points.
• Rigid metal/plastic body panels -1

Interior cage or exo-cage: (-3 metal -1 plastic) per row of seats or area where seats would be (vehicle doesn't need an interior to get these points). Cage must have down bars and cross bars in front and behind each row. Not available to tubers.

Tube accessories
• Sliders: (both sides) metal -3, plastic -1
• Integrated tube shock mounts: metal and brazed/welded to frame -1 (per pair)

Body
• Hard body: full -8, cab -4
• Drop bed : -3
• Complete custom built body: (metal or hard plastic, no lexan) full -4, Cab -2 (in addition to hard body points)
• Inner fender wells: -1 per pair

Bumpers (items must be chassis mounted and separate from the body).
• Bumpers : metal -3 each , plastic -1 each
• Stinger/grill guard: -1

Exterior roof rack/light bar (may only choose one).
• Roof rack: metal: -2, plastic -1
• Roof top light bar : metal -1

Interior:
• 3D interior: 1 seat -3, 2 seat (or bench) -4, 4 seat -5 (any 3D interior must include seat, dash, steering wheel and floor). A 3D SUV cargo area will be awarded an additional -1
• 2D/half interior: 1 seat -1, 2 seat -2, 4 seat -3.
• Driver/passenger must be human, scale sized adult figures. Only available if accompanied by an interior.
-4 Complete Figure
-3 Knees Up
-2 Torso Up
-1 Head with arms
-1 point for 3rd and 4th passengers (Kids OK for 3rd & 4th passengers)

Suspension/drivetrain/steering:
• Leaf springs (front/rear): -3 ea, -7 both.
• Multiple axles: 3 driven axles -3, 4 (or more) driven axles -5
• Chassis mounted steering servo: -5 (front) -2 (rear) *rear= Class 3 only*
• Functioning transfer case: -4.
• 3D engine: Must be in a reasonable location and appear to be powering the drivetrain of the vehicle (-4)

Realistic exterior items (max -6 pts): Items that are non-functional but you would see on a trail truck.
• Fuel cell, exhaust, jerry can, hubs on all wheels, steering stabilizer, disc/drum brakes on all wheels, mirrors(2), wipers(2), antenna, license plate, fire extinguisher, trail tools (Hi-lift jack, etc.) first aid, etc. -1 each

Functional items (max -8 pts for all items listed below):
• Tow strap, -D-ring, Pull Pal, sand ladder, hitch, opening doors and hood, spare tire mount, etc. -1 each
• Headlights(2) and taillights(2) -2
• Winch -2 front, -2 rear (max -4)
• Full size spare tire. -3

[ittybitty]

Wouldn't have expected you to be the one to head up a thread on RULES

[cykb4117]

Course points and penalties:

Course:

Courses should be comprised of 10 gates.
With point out at and time limit resulting in a penalty of +40(DNF) -2 for every progressed gate. A DNS penalty will be +50.
Ex. 5 gates progressed, time limit up at last progressed gate(5) = 40(DNF) -10(progressed gates)= +30 final score


Points:

Progress: -2 points
Gate Marker: +10 points
Boundary Marker: +10 points
Vehicle rollover: +5 points (No rollover when running course as team)
Vehicle touch (repair & repositions): +10 points
Winch: +3 points
Dig/rear steer: +5 points
Did not finish (or point out): point out or high score on course +20 points
Did not start: Point out or high score on course +50 points


Vehicle touch: (+10 pts) All vehicle touches excluding “rollovers”, "winching", "assisted recoveries" (see associated rules) , intentional or unintentional, are given an automatic +10 points. The judge then will stop time when either the driver calls for a vehicle touch or the judge calls a driver touch. The vehicle is then moved back by the driver to the previously cleared gate with the rear axle aligned to that gate. If the vehicle cannot be aligned to the gate due to course design, the judge will reposition the vehicle to the next stable location after the cleared gate. This location will be used for all drivers. Note: All gates for progress are still “live” unless a gate has already been deemed “dead”.

Vehicle touches: include but are not limited to: repairs, repositions, vehicle driving/falling into the driver.

On-course repairs: (+10pts) Must be completed on course and in the spot of which the driver decided to take the repair. Repairs must be made within the course time, while the course timer will continue to run. If repairs are made within the course time, the driver must return to the last previous gate cleared. If repairs cannot be made within the course time, the driver is given a DNF minus progress points for that course. There are no restrictions on whom or how the repairs are made.

Off-course repairs: (+10pts) A driver can call time to make an off-course repair. Repairs should be completed within 30 minutes, or the driver is given a DNF minus progress points. If the repair is made in the allotted time, the driver must return to the last previous gate cleared. A 1 minute time penalty will be subtracted from the time that is left on that course, the timer will continue once the vehicle makes forward progress.

Reposition: (+10 pts) The vehicle will be placed with it's rear tires in the last gate progressed or the nearest stable location after the last cleared gate if the last gate cleared is unstable.

Gate marker: (+10 pts each) each gate will be comprised of 2 gate markers. Points are given when all wheels do not travel between gate markers or any part of the vehicle. A gate marker will remain "live" for the entire duration of the attempt on the course. Once any gate marker has been touched or straddled, no more penalties will be given for that gate marker. Only when a gate penalty is assessed will that gate marker be deemed "dead". No further penalties will be assessed at this point for that gate marker. There will no longer be a penalty for stepping on a gate (for safety reasons) but please stay off course as much as possible and limit course damage.

Boundary Marker: (+10 pts each) Points are given when any part of the vehicle touches a boundary marker. Once a boundary marker is touched the judge then will stop time, and the vehicle is then moved back by the driver to the previously cleared gate with the rear axle aligned to that gate. If the vehicle cannot be aligned to the gate due to course design, the judge will reposition the vehicle to the next stable location after the cleared gate. This location will be used for all drivers. A boundary marker will remain "live" for the entire duration of the attempt on the course, and should be replaced if moved. Boundary markers are not required in the design of a course.

DNF (Did Not Finish): (Max points: +80) are given anytime a driver cannot complete a course for any reason. (Time expired, vehicle not repairable, went home, etc) Progress points are awarded for each gate completed.

DNS (Did Not Start): ( +100 pts) are given anytime a driver cannot start a course for any reason. Vehicle must start course under its own power.

Progress bonus: (-2 progress point) shall be awarded to drivers for each gate that is cleared by the vehicle during the attempt of a course. A gate is considered cleared and a progress bonus shall be given when at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate in the intended direction of the gate. All tires must pass completely through the gate to receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty. A 10 point gate penalty shall be given if all tires do not clear the gate, even if no gate marker is touched or straddled. The tires of the vehicle must travel completely through the gate, and not just break the plane of the gate. Tires must pass through the gate in the same direction and in the same attempt before a progress bonus is awarded. These points are deducted from the total course score. Once a driver has pointed out, no further progress points will be awarded.

Course Direction: (+10 pts) Gates must be cleared in their intended direction and sequence. Any part of the vehicle entering an non-cleared gate in the wrong direction, or driven through out of sequence will result in a +10 point penalty. The judge will stop time. The vehicle is then moved back to the previously cleared gate . Once the gate is cleared and awarded progress it can be traveled in any sequence or direction.


Winching: (+3 pts each) A winch penalty will be assessed every time the winch cable is connected for a pull. If at any time during the process of removing recovery tools and/or winch line from vehicle, the vehicle is moved by any force other than it's winch or it's own power, a touch penalty will be assessed and the vehicle repositioned to the last cleared gate (see vehicle touch rule).


Dig/Rear steer (Class 3 only): (+5 pts) Dig and rear steer are both legal in Class 3, but only one may be used per course. The first use of dig or rear steer will incur a +5 point penalty, subsequent uses of the same feature (dig or rear steer) on the same course are free. Use of the other feature is prohibited. If at any time on the same course the driver uses rear steer after using dig, or uses dig after using rear steer, a +10 reposition penalty will be incurred, and the truck will be placed at the last cleared gate.

Safety time out: A driver may call for time to stop so that he or she may safely reposition themselves on the course. This time shall be used for the purpose of driver safety and may not be used to survey the course or for any other advantage. Once the competitor is repositioned the time will start, however the judge has the right to start time at any point.

Vehicle out-of-spec: If the Judge has reason to believe a vehicle is out of spec during a course run, he may call time to stop. At that point no additional inputs maybe given by the driver to the vehicle via touch or radio control. The Judge must mark the vehicle’s location and perform a tech inspection in the specified tech area (same manner as all other tech inspections). If the vehicle has been deemed within spec, the driver and vehicle will return to the location marked by the judge and the clock will start once again. If the vehicle is now out of spec and the Judge has determined that the vehicle has gained an advantage, the driver must take a repair to correct the problem. If the problem can not be corrected to bring the vehicle back within spec, the driver will receive a DNF for that course. If a vehicle falls out of spec due to breakage on course and the judge determines the driver has not gained an advantage, then the driver may be allowed to continue on course without stopping time and requiring a tech inspection. Bodies, and body panels are not included in this exception, and must be replaced immediately, standard repair procedures and penalties apply

[cykb4117]

So moving on to the the problems we had yesterday.

Courses:

I thought 50 gates was great however there is problems.Events could be comprised of 5 10 gate courses with a time limit of ten minutes per course. This allows for repairs between courses

Scoring:

Scoring worked well however it needs work. We need a time limit for our courses and a penalty for a DNF.

If 5 gates are progressed when time is up what will be the standard. In the comps you would receive +40 points -progressed gates Ex. 5 gates progressed would result in +40(DNF penalty) -10(progressed gates) regardless of touches or other penalties(correct me if i'm wrong) for a score of +30.

However i like the way we did it at the last comp.
Ex1. 5 gates progressed, penalty of +2 for non progressed gates, score being -10(progressed gates) +10(not progressed) for a score of 0.
Ex2. 5 gates progressed, penalty of +2 for non progressed gates, and DNF penalty, -10(progressed gates) +10(not progressed) +20(DNF) for a score of 20. This may be the best option.

Judging

I'm sure there is a test out there. But we(judges) need to be more familiar with the rules( me esp.) and have cheat sheet available. We could print scoring cheat sheets on score sheets.

Winch points

Winch points should be available at every gate or we could winch off the judges foot.

Teams

We will have to discuss this in detail. It seems to work well however any questions should be directed here and changes and additions will be made above

Score sheets

I like our score sheet however i think there is room for improvement. We can add sheets to this thread and find one we like. I will bring a computer with Excel to do the sum's and averages with the bonus of being able to upload to RCC immediately. During down time the sheet can be updated with scores.

Everyone who has been to a scale comp or would like to attend should post suggestions and comments. If anything is incorrect above(other than changes) please correct me! Everything i posted above is just a baseline that we should collectively improve! Look forward to making changes!!

[cykb4117]

Originally Posted by ittybitty

Wouldn't have expected you to be the one to head up a thread on RULES

LOL I didn't either. But hopefully i'll just be editing the the original posts

[hatefulboy]

One of my concerns is, if someone DNF or DNS, they can actually score better than someone that actually runs the course. This shouldn't be able to happen.

[BigJon]

Originally Posted by cykb4117

So moving on to the the problems we had yesterday.

Courses:

I thought 50 gates was great however there is problems.Events could be comprised of 5 10 gate courses with a time limit of ten minutes per course. This allows for repairs between courses

Scoring:

Scoring worked well however it needs work. We need a time limit for our courses and a penalty for a DNF.

If 5 gates are progressed when time is up what will be the standard. In the comps you would receive +40 points -progressed gates Ex. 5 gates progressed would result in +40(DNF penalty) -10(progressed gates) regardless of touches or other penalties(correct me if i'm wrong) for a score of +40.

Your wrong it would be a +30 because it is 40 - 10 = 30. I am here for you bud! lol think you fat fingered it.


Sent from me using my DNA

[BigJon]

Originally Posted by hatefulboy

One of my concerns is, if someone DNF or DNS, they can actually score better than someone that actually runs the course. This shouldn't be able to happen.

That is why if we do the 5 - 10 gate courses with a time limit and a point out at 40

Sent from me using my DNA

[Crawlininga]

I like the direction the rules are headed! Makes for a better comp IMO! Glad you took what we were talking about at the comp! Make the courses harder and a time limit. Should make for some fun times in the near future

[cykb4117]

Originally Posted by Crawlininga

I like the direction the rules are headed! Makes for a better comp IMO! Glad you took what we were talking about at the comp! Make the courses harder and a time limit. Should make for some fun times in the near future

Ya the comp was great but with a few tweaks should be awesome. You had some great ideas that hopefully we can agree on and implement.

Originally Posted by hatefulboy

One of my concerns is, if someone DNF or DNS, they can actually score better than someone that actually runs the course. This shouldn't be able to happen.

Ya i totally agree. I think we should have a large DNF penalty and +2 for any gate not progressed. something like +40(DNF) +2(each gate not progressed) does that make sense to everyone?

[Crawlininga]

Yeah it does to me. What about if you can't clear a gate? Will it be like 20 for the gate not cleared plus the 10 for the touch and no progress on that gate? So it would be 30 points total?

[Ajppsc]

I like where this is going as well, great job Cyrus. Ready for the next comp already!!!!

[Ajppsc]

[QUOTE=cykb4117;4446495]Scale Points:

Scale points are to be awarded at 100% of a vehicles total value (rounded down if necessary)
Minimum/Maximum values are to be determined by the event organizers or local clubs. Should be 45(NEEDS REVISION

*No items can be counted more than once unless noted otherwise*
*Functional items must be functional. Winch and lights must work

I disagree with this one, the scale calculator allows for a max of 95 scale points depending on what kinds of modifications you have done. There should not be a cap however if there is one we should cap it were the calculator cuts off. If you have put the time and the money into your build to make it look as scale as possible, then I believe you should be awarded for that. Please post your opinions as well. Thanks

[skerb]

• Winching can only be performed off of natural objects (i.e. trees, rocks, etc...), other vehicles, or stakes supplied by the course builder.
** All gates will have a winch point(NEEDS REVISION)
This is something we need to setup if there are obstacles with no way to get around, like our Grand Canyon Climb at the last event. This should be easy enough. Do you think we need winch points for all gates?

Did not finish (or point out): point out or high score on course +20 points
Did not start: Point out or high score on course +50 points

We need to figure out how many points for a DNF or a DNS, because I agree, you should not be able to get a better score by not finishing a course.

Courses:

I thought 50 gates was great however there is problems.Events could be comprised of 5 10 gate courses with a time limit of ten minutes per course. This allows for repairs between courses

I like the idea of shorter courses, but I would say we do perhaps (3) 15 gate courses rather than the 10 gates, this keeps the coures a bit longer but not so long. I personally like the longer courses. I know you were saying 10 because thats what in the rules we have, but I really like the idea of the longer courses. I can even see us go to (2-3) 20 gate courses.

[BigJon]

The whole point out, dnf, and dns I think should be simplified on a 10 gate course point out at 40, dnf 40- progress, and dns 50. We can us this as a base line. Say we have a 15 gate course than point out at 60, dnf 60- progress, dns 75. 20 gate course point out at 80, dnf 80- progress, dns 100. I think they got it right it is simplified so you can give the score on the spot.

Tell me what you think!

Sent from me using my DNA

[skerb]

Originally Posted by BigJon

The whole point out, dnf, and dns I think should be simplified on a 10 gate course point out at 40, dnf 40- progress, and dns 50. We can us this as a base line. Say we have a 15 gate course than point out at 60, dnf 60- progress, dns 75. 20 gate course point out at 80, dnf 80- progress, dns 100. I think they got it right it is simplified so you can give the score on the spot.

Tell me what you think!

Sent from me using my DNA

I like the way the rules and points just double for the 20 gate courses.
I say we use 20 gate courses from now on as a baseline with the dnf and dns points jon mentioned above.

Sent from my DROIDX

[M_ENERGY]

So what class 1,2,3 are you guys placing the twin hammers rig in? Just curious. Didn't see anything about a tub chassis mentioned above? May have missed it...

[skerb]

Originally Posted by M_ENERGY

So what class 1,2,3 are you guys placing the twin hammers rig in? Just curious. Didn't see anything about a tub chassis mentioned above? May have missed it...

We had placed it in class 2 for the last 2 events but by the rules it should be class 3.

There has been talk of allowing 1.9 wraiths with scx axles and twin hammers in class 2. That is up for discussion.

Sent from my DROIDX

[M_ENERGY]

I was wondering, b/c its kind of a class of its own. Just don't get as much scale points I am assuming.