one fix creates one new problem

[jakhammer]

I decided I wanted more articulation out of mt TSC TLT. So as I had seen others do, I took my shocks out from between the metal mounts and mounted them to the inside of the metal mount. This moves the bottom of the shock in and gets them from looking like this / \ to this l l . so now I have more articulation and its great, much better crawling expirenece now. BUT, this has created a HUGE problem. I now have ungodly chassis lean while going forward. Im talking atleast 1/2 of the shock travel to the right side (if looking at the front of the truck). I knew it would lean a little and it has leaned that way since I laid the trans down cuz the motor is on that side of the chassis. I put my battery up front out over the servo and link (like a bulu setup) and keep it to the opposite side of the chassis, but it dont seem to matter. It leans so bad my front tire rubs the body while going straight on level ground.

What can I do to prevent this? I have thought about using some spring spacers on that side to level it out, but I dont know what adverse affect it will have while crawling. Any ideas or opinions?

Chris

[microgoat]

TLT torque roll limiter

one solution to the problem. so far it's worked well.

[Plays_with_Toys]

I run alot more spacing on the driver side rear shock compared to all the others and while my truck leans, its for me a fact of life since I love the uber soft springs, but they don't offer much resistance to torque roll.

[toyofast]

What shocks? What oil? What springs? Pre-load on the springs? What valving are you running in the shocks?


Start with adjusting the suspension on the truck and you wil soon fix the twisting gremlins. It seems as if people never remember to TEST their suspension setups. Go out and buy several different springs, AE, Traxxas, Losi, HPI and others. Buy a few different oil weights, 30, 40, 60, 80 and 100. If you can change the valve inside the shock,get more of those while your out too.


SETTING UP A GOOD CRAWLER IS LIKE SETTING UP A GOOD RACING BUGGY/TRUCK!! It takes time and testing to produce a good setup. I recently PM'ed someone about this same situation. I told him that I constantly adjust my suspension setup, mostly the shocks, for each crawling location/conditions. Not one crawling location is the same..... Just like if your out racing a buggy/truck, you have to setup your car to each track. Not one setting will work everywhere.

So you can take in everyones ideas on their setup and settings on their chassis, suspension, etc... but that doesn't mean it'll work for you and your crawling location(s).

[jakhammer]

here is my setup as of right now:
Maxx shocks, stock plastic
trinity 15 wt oil
Losi grey up front losi white out back (I know I need to switch those around)
1/8" preload on both front shocks
out of the box pistion in shock which I believe is a 2 hole

as far as setting up suspension, well, I suck at suspension. I dont know what will affect what on crawlers or on road or monsters, or anything. I am completely ignorant when it comes to suspension on everything. My Maxx even sux cuz I dont know what I am doing and dont know how to make it like I want. So its not just as easy as :well, today I need more spring or today I need thicker oil. I dont know what I need. And that is as honest of answer as I can give you.

Chris
ps, I cant even make a change and test it that easy. I have to drive to find rocks and I cant always just show up where the rocks are to test.

[toyofast]

First.... don't fret, we are here to save you

You'll need a place to test your progress...You don't need real rocks. Find some steps, steep hill, bricks, cardboard boxes, etc.. Just run the setup over the same lines several times untill you get the "feel" for it.


1.
A - Change the oil to 60wt in all 4 shocks.
B - Limit travel(compression & droop) to no more than 1/2" per shock.
C - Test.

2.
A - Un-do so of the limited movement in 2 of the 4 shocks. Not the ones that would help control the torque twist in forward or reverse. Normally these two are oppisite of each other.
B - Test again. Remember to run the same lines as you did in the previous test. You'll be able to see/feel the changes.

Just keep that up. Baby steps is the key. Do simple small steps each time. Be sure to test.

Take for example my Bulu1 rig... In the front I have about 1" of up-travel per front shocks. In the rear I have about 1/4" on the right rear and 5/16"(hair more than 1/4") of up-travel on the left rear. I use those small rubber bushings that come with servos for mounting as my bumpstops/limiting bumpers on the shocks. They slip on and off very easily and I can make quick adjustments if needed to suit the crawling conditions. Up in the front I use the rubber bumpers also.

[Plays_with_Toys]

For limiters, fuel tubing works as well and comes in multiple colors which is good for matching your rig, or make blue 1/4", red 1/2", things like that.

60wt is massive! I've never run an oil that thick in any shock. What springs are you using with that weight oil? I run losi whites with losi 25wt. I think oil that think wouldn't allow the soft springs to decompress the shock.

Oh, and shocks/suspension is tricky. It just takes alot of experimention. Sometimes, when I want to test a setup, I just sit on the floor with one leg bent up and the other flat and try to crawl over myself. Easy quick check.

[toyofast]

Originally Posted by Plays_with_Toys

For limiters, fuel tubing works as well and comes in multiple colors which is good for matching your rig, or make blue 1/4", red 1/2", things like that.

Just as long as you can remove it without having to pull the shock ends off.... the easier you can make adjustments out in the field, the better. I guess if you split the tubing in half that you you can slip it over the shock shaft easier then it'd work fine.

Originally Posted by Plays_with_Toys

60wt is massive! I've never run an oil that thick in any shock. What springs are you using with that weight oil? I run losi whites with losi 25wt. I think oil that think wouldn't allow the soft springs to decompress the shock.

60wt massive? Thanks! A lot of the ORCRC guys run 50wt and above in their rigs. I think it has a lot to do with how our shocks are setup. Most of us have our shocks laying pretty flat which really changes the dampening effect that they handle. I'm running 60wt Losi oil and AE blue springs up front and 60wt oil in rear w/ Losi orange springs in the rear. All of the shocks have some sort of preload on them. I change the preload often so it's never the same.

Originally Posted by Plays_with_Toys

Oh, and shocks/suspension is tricky. It just takes alot of experimention.

This is the thing that the n00bies tend to foget. To really setup a good crawler you HAVE to learn how to tweak your suspension setups.

[jakhammer]

dumb question hear, but what do I want to limit the shocks compression? I will lose articulation which still is not as impressive as most machines. I might be wrong though. I will take some pics tonight and post them showing my lean and articulation and set up.

Chris

[toyofast]

Originally Posted by jakhammer

dumb question hear, but what do I want to limit the shocks compression? I will lose articulation which still is not as impressive as most machines. I might be wrong though. I will take some pics tonight and post them showing my lean and articulation and set up.

In my TLT rig I have just enough total articulation to flex a tire up onto another tire(Masher 2K)... which is about 4-5" high. It's not much but damn is it a stable ride. The more flex you have the more problems you will probably have. It's about 50* max.....


Don't worry about having a lot of articualtion to impress people.... if that's all you want then the truck will never perform as a great crawler.

[jakhammer]

i have been shooting for 65-75*. Right now I can get tire up onto a 32oz drink cup. I have noticed I have a lot of sideays rollovers. maybe this is part of it. I can however climb much steeper angles than i could before. Now that I have a battery mounting system down, that gained me alot of clibming ability.

I knew i didnt want 80* or more of articulation, but I thought optimum was 70-80*. Guess I need to read more.

Chris

[TwistedCreations]

i never go over 60* of articulation on any truck. I have built trucks with way less than that. i would have a more stable truck and it lift a wheel, then to have a truck that twists up alot and wants to rollover on all kinds of stuff

60wt aint massive, i run 80-100 wt in shocks. just depends on how its all setup

[FritoBandito]

Bulu guys keep in mind that the stock shock mount on the TSC chassis has the shocks much more vertical than a Bulu chassis. Currently I have ~60 degrees of artic and I'm using the full travel of my 4" shocks. Using 80w oil would just about lock the suspension for us.

[jakhammer]

as promised, here are pics of my setup as it sits.

the lean I have while going forward:


articulation:


articulation measurement (7 3/4 inches):


Shock mounting:



Belly Clearance:


The clawhammer


This is how i ran it yesturday. Crawled very well, but it gets hung up easy with a 12.5" WB, that will be changing. going to 12.25 with the rear being longer.

Chris

[Plays_with_Toys]

The pic isn't the greatest, but you can see how much I have my driver side rear shock preloaded compared to the others:

http://www.one18th.com/forums/attach...achmentid=9277

But don't run your truck like this. It has tons of stability. TONS. But, you have less ground clearance under the chassis than you do under the axles and you get hung up on the smallest obstacles.

Oh and that articulation is about as much as you'll squeeze out of it I think. Here's mine with that springless setup which gave me maybe a 1/4" more travel:

http://www.one18th.com/forums/attach...achmentid=9276

[FritoBandito]

Originally Posted by Plays_with_Toys

The pic isn't the greatest, but you can see how much I have my driver side rear shock preloaded compared to the others:

http://www.one18th.com/forums/attach...achmentid=9277

But don't run your truck like this. It has tons of stability. TONS. But, you have less ground clearance under the chassis than you do under the axles and you get hung up on the smallest obstacles.

Would a skidplate help with that? I made this one and it seems to make a difference.
http://datascape.net/crawler/crawler09.jpg

Oh and that articulation is about as much as you'll squeeze out of it I think. Here's mine with that springless setup which gave me maybe a 1/4" more travel:
http://www.one18th.com/forums/attach...achmentid=9276

Are you still running that way? What happened to the bug body??

[Plays_with_Toys]

My truck is still sitting that way, but its cuz I haven't had time to get it fixed back the way I want it. The bug body wouldn't fit (tooooo much rubbing) with that setup, and I think the battery wouldn't fit it. But thats ok, because my batteries are dumping so quick, I need new ones and I will be attempting to build a few packs for the first time, so I can distribute the weight. I might just run a 4 cell battery like the UTRCRC guys run, since it saves alot of weight.

BTW, nice looking skid plate. I run my rebel in back where the other battery would normally be, down inbetween the crossbeams. Fits snug like a bug.

[FritoBandito]

Originally Posted by Plays_with_Toys

My truck is still sitting that way, but its cuz I haven't had time to get it fixed back the way I want it. The bug body wouldn't fit (tooooo much rubbing) with that setup, and I think the battery wouldn't fit it. But thats ok, because my batteries are dumping so quick, I need new ones and I will be attempting to build a few packs for the first time, so I can distribute the weight. I might just run a 4 cell battery like the UTRCRC guys run, since it saves alot of weight.

Yea, I've heard of folks running 4 cells. Where do you put them?

BTW, nice looking skid plate. I run my rebel in back where the other battery would normally be, down inbetween the crossbeams. Fits snug like a bug.

Thanks. I saw your speed control. I'm still trying to decide how to mount my lipos so I thought I'd put my electronics as low and forward as possible. By the time I'm done it's likely to change.

[toyofast]

Your setup is way too soft and you have too much travel. You need to sit down and refill your shocks with at least 40wt oil and get stiffer springs.


BTW, not all Bulu users run their shocks in the stock/"factory" position. Most have built/fabbed up shock towers to get the shocks more vertical. Although mostly in the rear since most of the ORCRC crew has a 30/70 setup with their links..


You guys don't have to run Sub-C cells. Most of us run the small packs made for the Mini-T and other "micro" trucks. Cheapbatterypacks.com has been pretty helpfull when building our custom packs. It's nice that they are local too

[jakhammer]

I added some preload spacers today since it was a quick thing to do and the lean is pretty muc gone now. I will switch my back springs to the front and front to back to see how I like it. I am going to make some bump stops also. I have 40wt, but I am going to try some 70wt first to see how I like it and what it does. I am also going to bring the front end back in and leave the rear where it is. One of these days I will build a link mount and triangulate at the axle instead of the chassis.

I have stampede springs I might try again, but the first time I used them I ripped them right back off cuz they were way to stiff.

How does all of that sound?

Chris