2.2 TLT Competition Crawler Question...

[Grizzly4x4]

Speed - I hope that someday I own a comp rig that will fit a 10T Cobalt puller. I believe that this is the best motor on the market for both low speed control and wheel speed. However I have been reasonably happy with a 55T on 8 cell 2/3A packs. I have never believed in 65, 75,80 turn motors, crawling done properly, requires the ability to light them tires up. Run a motor that gives lots of wheelspeed but still has enough torque to turn the tires easily.

Low CG - I like a compromise, Bender showed me the way with 2.75" or so of belly clearance and I really like it. I've tried less and I've tried more but I like the overall driveability with 2.75". Based on 5" tall tires and a 12.5" WB of course.

Shock Setup - I like to run my front springs as light as possible, I articulate my rig and set the springs so that the shock fully compresses. If I need more belly clearance after that then I move the shock mounting points. In the rear I can run the springs a little stiffer since the front end is heavier. This helps stability and fights any torque twist. I like to run no heavier than 40 wt oil in a dedicated crawler.

Minimal Articulation - On a 2.2 clas comp rig I like to be able to lift one tire 4.75" to 5". I don't think any more or any less is useful in the big picture.

Ride Hight - I like to run the front end 1/8" to 1/4" lower than the rear. I think this helps keep the front end from unloading as much since my shocks are not fully extended at ride height.

Low Rotating Mass - I try to add as much weight as possible to the axles in the form of steel washers and lead weight. This helps me to minimize the amount of weight I have to add to the wheels. I think wheels need to have fair bit of weight to keep the CG low, but too much weight slows motor response and is harder on drivetrain components. I like to start with plastic wheels to dial in the weight as needed.

Not to Light - I like my current setup at 7 pounds. It feels super stable but with all the weight added at the axles and wheels it still responds well. I like to shoot for a 60% front 40% rear weight bias.

Steering - Steering is all important to me, a good steering servo is worth every penny spend and you can't have too much.

[Sprint 80]

All of these are very good points to remember. I've found that maintenance of your rig is another step overlooked. Some tend to toss their rig onto a shelf and forget about it until a couple days before the next comp or gtg. Take the time to clean your rig and inspect for any loose or worn parts. Staying up late the night before a comp working on your rig because you forgot to check it the day after your last comp may lead to a loose set screw or wheel.

jus my .02 cents

[Tanis]

CG is crucial on a crawler, get the weight as low as possible. Keeping as much off of the chassis will also make it easier to dial out torquetwist.
Like Grizz said, you can never have too much steering power, I've been running 403oz 8711's for over a year in my TLT, it has hurt me sometimes, but the benefits far outweigh the downside.
Dragbrake is a must-have as well, how much is driver preference, I prefer as much as my Mamba Max/Handwound motor will give me, I like to be able to stop on just about any incline as long as the tires will hold me on it.
Dig is also a must nowadays, it is so useful for so many different situations, but it needs to be consistent and reliable, or it's worthless
My current setup is a 60/40 split, with longer links/shocks in the front, and shorter links/shocks in the rear. I have always liked the front to do most of the work, and run lighter springs up front with stiffer ones in the rear. My weight bias I still have towards the front of the truck though, roughly 60/40 split, as I feel it helps when climbing, and I achieve that by running a little more weight in the front tires than the rear, and running 10cells on the front axle.
Tire and insert choice is also a big deal, experiment with different combos until you find what works best for you.
I set up my trucks, with gearing and motor choice, so that my truck will usually stall out before I break something, doesn't always work out that way, but it has helped me be consistent in competitions, not having to take repair penalties.
Knowing your trucks abilities inside and out, is a big deal, practice-practice-practice and then...practice some more, it will help you become a better driver. If possible, crawl with drivers who are better than you, as that will help you improve and push you to do things you might not otherwise try.

[ccm399]

Originally Posted by Grizzly4x4

Speed - I hope that someday I own a comp rig that will fit a 10T Cobalt puller. I believe that this is the best motor on the market for both low speed control and wheel speed. However I have been reasonably happy with a 55T on 8 cell 2/3A packs. I have never believed in 65, 75,80 turn motors, crawling done properly, requires the ability to light them tires up. Run a motor that gives lots of wheelspeed but still has enough torque to turn the tires easily.

Low CG - I like a compromise, Bender showed me the way with 2.75" or so of belly clearance and I really like it. I've tried less and I've tried more but I like the overall driveability with 2.75". Based on 5" tall tires and a 12.5" WB of course.

Shock Setup - I like to run my front springs as light as possible, I articulate my rig and set the springs so that the shock fully compresses. If I need more belly clearance after that then I move the shock mounting points. In the rear I can run the springs a little stiffer since the front end is heavier. This helps stability and fights any torque twist. I like to run no heavier than 40 wt oil in a dedicated crawler.

Minimal Articulation - On a 2.2 clas comp rig I like to be able to lift one tire 4.75" to 5". I don't think any more or any less is useful in the big picture.

Ride Hight - I like to run the front end 1/8" to 1/4" lower than the rear. I think this helps keep the front end from unloading as much since my shocks are not fully extended at ride height.

Low Rotating Mass - I try to add as much weight as possible to the axles in the form of steel washers and lead weight. This helps me to minimize the amount of weight I have to add to the wheels. I think wheels need to have fair bit of weight to keep the CG low, but too much weight slows motor response and is harder on drivetrain components. I like to start with plastic wheels to dial in the weight as needed.

Not to Light - I like my current setup at 7 pounds. It feels super stable but with all the weight added at the axles and wheels it still responds well. I like to shoot for a 60% front 40% rear weight bias.

Steering - Steering is all important to me, a good steering servo is worth every penny spend and you can't have too much.

Thanks for posting the articulation heights!!! Great info in this post.

Originally Posted by Tanis

CG is crucial on a crawler, get the weight as low as possible. Keeping as much off of the chassis will also make it easier to dial out torquetwist.
Like Grizz said, you can never have too much steering power, I've been running 403oz 8711's for over a year in my TLT, it has hurt me sometimes, but the benefits far outweigh the downside.
Dragbrake is a must-have as well, how much is driver preference, I prefer as much as my Mamba Max/Handwound motor will give me, I like to be able to stop on just about any incline as long as the tires will hold me on it.
Dig is also a must nowadays, it is so useful for so many different situations, but it needs to be consistent and reliable, or it's worthless
My current setup is a 60/40 split, with longer links/shocks in the front, and shorter links/shocks in the rear. I have always liked the front to do most of the work, and run lighter springs up front with stiffer ones in the rear. My weight bias I still have towards the front of the truck though, roughly 60/40 split, as I feel it helps when climbing, and I achieve that by running a little more weight in the front tires than the rear, and running 10cells on the front axle.
Tire and insert choice is also a big deal, experiment with different combos until you find what works best for you.
I set up my trucks, with gearing and motor choice, so that my truck will usually stall out before I break something, doesn't always work out that way, but it has helped me be consistent in competitions, not having to take repair penalties.
Knowing your trucks abilities inside and out, is a big deal, practice-practice-practice and then...practice some more, it will help you become a better driver. If possible, crawl with drivers who are better than you, as that will help you improve and push you to do things you might not otherwise try.

Another great post. Posts like this really help out the new guys and gals!

[shadow102]

Excelent info guys. This is even great for somebody who doesn't plan to compete like my self but wants something that will work well whereever I may run.

I most of all enjoy the talk of shock oils and such as it seems people over look that a lot. Has anybody experimented with the actually shock piston itself?

[rckjeep]

Originally Posted by shadow102

Excelent info guys. This is even great for somebody who doesn't plan to compete like my self but wants something that will work well whereever I may run.

I most of all enjoy the talk of shock oils and such as it seems people over look that a lot. Has anybody experimented with the actually shock piston itself?

I have played with different pistons and modified pistons. I usually use a piston with less holes in the right rear to help with twist as well as thicker oil.
Some shocks(3Racing Mini LST for example) will leak bad with a single hole piston.

The rest of my set up is set on low. I run mini lst shocks on a long chassis to keep it stable and predictive. I also agree with keeping rotational weight at a minimum. I run my battery on the front axle as well as weight on the both axles. I run around 5oz. up front & 2oz. in the rear. Link geomerty is also crucial. With proper anti-squat #'s you rig will apply weight to the front while climbing. Too much anti-squat will cause the rear to get light on decents. It's finding that happy medium. Though I can't clear a 12" gap I do like wheel speed. I'll gun it thru a gate if needed for time or ease of clearing the gate.

I think I'll play with my shock set up based on Benders suggestions. I'll keep my softer front suspension but go softer. I agree that the front should do the most work and just guide the rear thru. No matter how long you've been doing this it never hurts to hear what others are doing. Nice topic Brett.

[Stormin2u]

I'm going to have to give that piston mod a try when you say right rear are you looking from the back of the truck? Drivers right as Bender discribed?

[mjh]

KAETWO..Quote:

Speed - A 35x1, with XXX brushes, advanced the timing 10 deg. and run a 8 fs spring on the pos shunt and a 6 fs on the neg. I also like the way a 7.4 volt Lipo kicks the motor in the butt. I'm of the opinion that if you crawler doesn't have the ability to gap 12" by jumping then it WAY TO SLOW :smile:



I just built this motor for the heck of it and ran it today in the comp
My thoughts Holy freaking awsome!!!bro Its now my new motor..Plenty of torque and very good wheel speed the outrunner is now on the shelf

And I was running 1350mha...2 cell lipo

[minijosh]

I'm new to crawling, more of a trail runner myself but I've judged comps here in SinCity. I have my own rig that I'm building up slowly so I can play with FrankRizzo and the sincityrcrc crawlers. I have to agree that dig is very necessary but I hate it at the sametime. I don't have a dig yet on my TLT but we just had a small comp and of course the dig rigs won but my favorite thing was the very last gate. Ehills4X4 come up and set up a very nice long run for the 5 rigs that didn't break. The trucks who scored the lowest points were all shafty. No digs were used but reverse was. Dig really helps with the lack of turning around in small areas, which is why I want it, but I'm going to say it is was a mod that was do that helped ruin the 2.2 classes. Now you have to either have motored axles or dig to compete at the bigger comps. I think it's lost it's wind and the new 1.9 class will become the real thing what the 2.2 was suppose to be.
First the Supers could do it and the 2.2's couldn't. Now you can dig in the 2.2's but not the 1.9 class. I'm guessing in 4 years folks will want to dig in the small rigs.

I'm building a blackjack with droop. I've done my shocks with the inner springs and 70 in the front and 90 in the rear.HH crawlmaster motor with quark 33 pro. I'll have plenty of power and I hope some good torque to hop the cracks when needed. All I need is a few small pieces and she's up. I just located a very large water run off rocked out area right by my house so you know I'll be there practicing weekly if not daily with my kids on the rocks with me. I just wish my Pajero would climb the big rocks.

I'm spent!!!

[Emmeth]

It seems a good weight setup is close to 60/40 toward the front , I see anyway many comp videos where the front is full of stuff, like battery, servo etc ...

I am under the impression the weight balance could be close to 80/20 or am I wrong ?

Of course I'm a crawler noob...

[bigshoe83]

I definitely like most of the weight up front and low but I am not really sure what my exact percentage is. keep changing setups until you find what works for you the best and then go with that!

[Rock Lobster]

Im quite the newbie, and this thread is very very helpful, thanks for all the info!

[Chiefy]

Originally Posted by Rock Lobster

Im quite the newbie, and this thread is very very helpful, thanks for all the info!

I'm a newbie too, this sites fantastic for picking up info.

[Adamjeeper]

I feel the biggest thing to remember up front is that this is all for fun, but who likes to lose!
Tires and suspension are biggest things to rememeber here: Super soft tires and a great smooth suspension will allow your rig to follow the terrain.
Rigs that are too high tend to be unstable, thus not good for competions. But like others have stated you must be able to clear obsticles in the trail so what I have done is ceate custom plastic sliders and skid plates for all the links, and the bottom of the front axle.
The rear axle tends to be pulled over obsticles. The front will tend to bind and cause the rear tires to loose traction. These sliders and plates were made from scrap plastic, super cheap and held in place using thin metal wire. This allows the sliders to move a bit and under a hard hit or tumble the wire will break and the plate will drop. But the linkage and the axle are safe from these stresses.
Another thing to consider is the power. Too much and you end up charging up and over everything, now the courses are being set up with tight turns and you almost have to have a dig feature to save points. For a scale rig power is never as important as the traction and ability of the suspension to keep the tires on the ground.
Weight distribution is very important as well, not weight in general.
Too far forward and your rig tumbles down every drop, too far back and the rig will not be able to pull itself up climbs.
My scale rig is set up as a test bed for new links, shock oil changes and even spring changes. I will never use something on a competion rig that has not been beaten pretty hard on a scale rig first. I have found that if I can bend or break this item on a scale rig, that it would never work on a competion rig.
Sterring that is too strong, well it can never be too strong. There is nothing better than being able to use the steering to pull your rig up and over something or slow yourself on a down hill. See-saw action at its best. Servos are strong enough now to almost turn your rig over, thus I always keep ONE plastic or nylon link in the steering set up. I would rather loose a 25 cent link than a forty dollar servo.
Style this is where we all look for something different. Advertise for you local shop, tell them who you are, and make sure that the next time they see that rig they remember you.

[ZoSo]

shaftys work best with a drop suspension IMHO
torque twist is nearly eliminated
sidehilling is incredible
with the right set up... breakovers can be great
I ran the top bannana chassis and TLT axles for a couple of years....still have the rig
I'm rebuilding it for the 2.2s class for next year.