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Thread: 2.2 TLT Competition Crawler Question...

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Old 10-17-2006, 09:37 PM   #1
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Default 2.2 TLT Competition Crawler Question...

Well I've been thinking about this question for a while and since seeing the rigs that turned up at the Nationals and other various competitions, I was just curious what you all think makes a competion rig?

For example is it clearance, low CG, side hilling stability, great break over, acceleration, traction, torque, light weight, etc, etc...

I have of course my own theories and just wanted to hear all of yours.

Be specific, explain your concepts and share your ideas. To date I have not seen a thread that really talks competition specifically and I'm curious to hear what the real competitors have to say.

If by chance this thread belongs elsewhere feel free to move it where it belongs. I apologize in advance.

Thanks!


Last edited by kaetwo; 10-17-2006 at 10:07 PM.
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Old 10-17-2006, 09:49 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaetwo
... clearance, low CG, side hilling stability, great break over, acceleration, traction, torque, light weight, etc, etc....
Yes
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Old 10-17-2006, 09:51 PM   #3
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i look for clearance cause i hate getting hung up...seems to be the thing ya see most at comps
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Old 10-17-2006, 10:18 PM   #4
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Here is what I personally look for.....

Speed - A 35x1, with XXX brushes, advanced the timing 10 deg. and run a 8 fs spring on the pos shunt and a 6 fs on the neg. I also like the way a 7.4 volt Lipo kicks the motor in the butt. I'm of the opinion that if you crawler doesn't have the ability to gap 12" by jumping then it WAY TO SLOW :-)

Low CG - You have to choose your lines carefully but the added stability is well worth it.

Shock Setup - Every crawler is different but I don't think builders pay enough attention to this area...maybe it's because they don't know enough about how it will effect the rig or maybe it's because it's a pain to tune. But once you find the perfect setup, you'll dig how it performs. A good set of shocks goes a long way here. I've never found that you can tune a plastic shock of any brand well.

Minimal Articulation - Most will agree here so I won't beat a dead horse. More than 60 degrees is a bit much for me.

Ride Hight - Not to be mistaken for clearance. I run my back an 1/8" - 1/2" lower than the front. It increases your stability going downhill and it make the rig react a bit slower and more perdictable.

Low Rotating Mass - I know that running lead in the front tires kills this theory but everywhere else that you can reduce the rotational mass will help you jump those gaps :-) and make the rig feel more nimble. I can't stand a heavy feeling crawler.

Not to Light - I personally think it's okay if your crawler has a little meat to it. My favorite weight is 5 lbs fully dressed. I build the rig so that there is as little weight above the hight of the tires as possible. I build the crawler light and then place the weight where I like it. I keep the rotational weight to a minimum and letter fly. I personally think that most crawlers have the ability to be competition material if they would just focus on weight placement. A heavy rig doesn't have to feel heavy if it's properly placed.

Steering - I spend a lot on a good servo and focus on making my steering as free as possible. Nothing sucks worse than not being able to steer your rig.

Well this scratches the surface for me but it's a start.

Thanks!

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Old 10-17-2006, 11:41 PM   #5
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Kaetwo, I agree with all of your criteria. Here in the NW it seems like belly clearance is'nt as big a deal as in other parts of the country. I think the weight is one of the most important things, and battery placement. Being able to sidehill well is the result of a well set up truck, and is also very important. I also enjoy wheelspeed more than some. My new truck has less articulation than my first two, and performs better. Tire choice is important , for both terrain and the drivers style of driving. Front dig seems to be an important item as well around here. Dig is necessary to make clean runs on the courses they are setting up these days. Just an opinion from a fairly new guy, that has learned alot in the last few months.
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Old 10-18-2006, 12:03 AM   #6
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I haven't ran 2.2 in awhile, but I think most of my super experience should carry over.

I try to set my truck up to have roughly a 60/40 weight distribution torwards the front so that I can get up the big ledges, but comming down isn't that bad either.

I like my trucks to be as light as possible, seems to me that the rig reacts slower during rollevers (easier to save) and it makes low traction climbs easier.

Of course COG is very important, so choosing lighter components aids in getting that COG down.

Speed is nice, but only if you don't have to sacrifice low speed control. IMO the best setup I've seen was a Revolver, with a 3s lipo- lots of speed but still controlable.

Stearing is everything- IMO anything less than a 645mg will simply not work on a competive comp rig and every effort should be made to ensure proper stearing geometry.


That's all
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Old 10-18-2006, 01:23 AM   #7
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Everything you stated is very important and what Highmark said is good info. Alot of it goes from how your driving style is. I mean just changing tires can change the way you have to drive. You just need to build what you think you would want and adjust from there. Gears, Shocks, tires, chassis, GC, COG and Weight all can chagne your driving style. Best thing is to so is get a set up you like and run it for some time. Get used to it and how it reacts. If you keeping changing things. You'll never get used to it. Look at Bender. His been running his own chassis's for some time and placed in the top 5 in both classes. He knows what his carwler is going to do in any terrain. Thats a big advanagte there. Hope that helps. One more thing remeber K.I.S.S... Keep it simple stupid.
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Old 10-18-2006, 08:43 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by run2jeepn
Best thing is to so is get a set up you like and run it for some time. Get used to it and how it reacts. If you keeping changing things. You'll never get used to it. Look at Bender. His been running his own chassis's for some time and placed in the top 5 in both classes. He knows what his carwler is going to do in any terrain. Thats a big advanagte there. Hope that helps. One more thing remeber K.I.S.S... Keep it simple stupid.
I love all the feed back, keep it coming.

run2jeepn well said. Those where two points that I failed to mention.

Thanks!

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Old 10-18-2006, 08:56 AM   #9
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run2jeepn brings up a great point. Its funny no one ever seems to mention how important getting really comfortable with your rig is. You can have the trickest rig out there, but if its always getting changed, you never get used to it. My SW2 as been built for months now, and i really hesitate to do any drastic changes to it, since it works great, and more importantly, i KNOW how to drive it. I probably have 100 hours driving on the same setup, and it does everything it needs to do well. Mine will continue to stay the same for the most part. I do change bodies, tires, and gearing, but that is about it.
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Old 10-18-2006, 09:51 AM   #10
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I like it I think we all can learn a little from each others exp. I think that one of the most important things is to get use to youre own rig . I also like the wieght dist. Its all in were its placed . I think its great when people are willing to share a little exp. And not try to hide it . Thanks Kaetwo for coming out of the closet with this. I feel so much better now.
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Old 10-18-2006, 12:22 PM   #11
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Well really Dez and I were talking about it a few weeks back. So really that is a Dezfan tip #1....Dezfan tip #2 is. If you can make it out of Carbon Fiber it must be better then.......More Dezfan tips coming soon.lol
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Old 10-18-2006, 03:18 PM   #12
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Good info guys.

I think having a well balanced rig is key. If you have tons of belly clearance and never get hung up, you're too tall. Sidehilling and steep climbs will be a struggle, if not impossible. Same goes for belly draggers, they kill in steeps and off camber but can't hang in the bowling ball sized rocks. Finding a combo that does well in all scenarios is key, obviously.

2.2 shafties suffer from torque twist, as we all know. I see alot of rigs that have too much torque twist IMO. People should set up the suspension so the front is softer then the rear, and set-up the front to have a little more travel. I don't get much travel out of my rear with it set-up like this, but I have virtually no torque twist either. It can be as easy as standing the rear shocks up more vertically then the fronts. I personally run different springs front and rear, as well as , 3 different oil thicknesses in the shocks. Link set-up can help too, which is another can of worms. I still say keep your uppers flat and/or parallel to the ground, at full droop of the suspension. It minimizes how much your wheel base stretches as the suspension cycles.

I've also been running a wider front width then the rear lately too. Jason tried it first by running wideners in front only, I quickly jumped on board with it too. It works great in most situations. It also makes clearing gates with the rear tires easier too, because of the narrowed width.

Foam set-ups are another key element. I run more foam in the rear tires, because I run a stiffer suspension set-up in the rear. When climbing up obstacles and all the weight is transferred to the rear axle, it'll help stop the rear tires from folding over, which usually results in the rig rolling over. Another reason to run stiffer rear foams is steep climbs and undercuts. The stiffer foams help the rear tires spin/grip less then the fronts. This usually keeps more traction on the front axle, which will help pull you up the obstacle.

That's a few off the top of my head.
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Old 10-18-2006, 03:34 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BENDER
as well as , 3 different oil thicknesses in the shocks.
So this brings the question, what weights of oil do you all use in your comp rigs?
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Old 10-18-2006, 03:40 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ_Shunk
So this brings the question, what weights of oil do you all use in your comp rigs?
The 2.2 TLT has 10 wt oil in both front shocks, with Losi white springs. The rear has 20wt oil in the right shock and 35wt in the left shock, looking at the rig from the back, with Stampede front springs.

The Clod just has 80wt oil and red Maxx springs, with the rear shocks pre-loaded. Since the Clod doesn't have driveshafts, it's not as critical.
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Old 10-18-2006, 03:40 PM   #15
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I hope you guys dont mind if I toss my 2 cents in... I dont have alot of comps out by me but I did take 2nd at the MJ with my bulu and here is how I set mine up.

Shocks- I use 30 wt oil in the front with lost yellow springs. In the back I run between 30-50 wt oil with stock tmaxx red springs. With this set up the front has some pretty good sag, but isnt floppy, and since it sits lower it seems to climb well.

Wideners- I dont use crazy wideners, nothing against the guys who make them but my reason are A) I am cheap (one of those wierd things about me, I cheap out on certain parts) B) I think they add alot of stress to the axles C) make its harder to clear gates. I personally use King Black Foot half shafts, they are just enough to make it a little bit wider to add the stability that you need.

Tires- I was a pure Moab fan for the longest time, but lately Mashers have been getting the job done for me,I would say they are honestly better, although I am pretty sure its almost a fact at this point .

Foams- I always cut my foams in half, then use the inner half. I actually try to cut them tappered like so that the middle is lower then the rest of the foam. Doing it this way provides good side wall support and allows the center of the tread to conform properly.

Batteries- one thing I swear buy right now is the smaller cells. I am running 2/3 1200 NIMH from Holmes hobbies and they work mint. Since I am scale freak, I think the smaller cells are less noticable (at least thats what I tell myself) but more importantly they keep the wieght down ALOT which I think is a big help.

Wieght- I weigh down my trucks a bit with stick on wheel wieghts. I wrap them around the inside of the rim and then on the back side of the wheel. I find that this is a good amount of wieght to help keep the truck planted. I typically only wiegh the front down, but thats the type of terrain I am crawling on.

Steering- I have to shave the crap out of the KBF axle otherwise I will loose steering, I shave them down so the are stock with the tlt ones, then I go 1 more mm. I also grind the knuckles and housing a bit and I get ALOT of throw. I also use a Good radio, on top of a good of a good metal gear BB,which I think is important for being able to adjust end points and stuff.

The chassis I used is a bulu 2, now I know it seems to be proven that laid down trans designs chassis work better, but I am happy with how my rig peforms and I know its driving characteristics which I think is the Key in the long run...Know what your rig is capable of.

-Mike

Last edited by 1BadJeepBruiser; 10-18-2006 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 04-13-2008, 10:13 PM   #16
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these are some good tips guys and are really apprecited. i come from the old school of racing rc cars and then as a newbie no one wanted to tell any secrets. but most of these of what im reading really make common sense.
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Old 04-15-2008, 08:45 AM   #17
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I think everything is relative to your driving style.

For me a balanced rig with a little more rear flex is the right setup for me. And with balance I like the majority of the weight of the rig in the center of the chassis and axles. 2 1/2 belly clearance minimum, 9 3/4-10 1/2 track width, 11 3/4-12 1/2 wb, shocks and spribgs to be decided on testing but I usually start with 25wt oil with DTX white springs and 5 1/2lbs to slightly over 6lbs.

But knowing your rig and figuring out "YOUR" driving style will trump the "ultimate" setup. If you look at the top 5 2.2 finishers in the warcrc winter series, every truck is different. #1 was a BMvii style rig to a GC-1.

To each his own!

but great insight from a lot of great drivers.

Thanks for sharing

-peter-
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:48 AM   #18
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Alot good info for sure.I believe this crawlin thing is 80% driver,sure you need a good setup.But i feel the most important thing is just knowing youre truck,how it reacts to input.

Good balance on the rig,and just alot of wheel time is the key to success.All the rest is driver preferance for his/her terrain and style

One other thing ive noticed,is when i go to local comps i typicaly dont do as well as i do when i travel for say an hour or 2.I think its just that i get alot more time to get focused and to get woke up lol im not a morning person.Point is the extra time to get mentaly prepared sure helps to get youre game face on.Ive learned the most from grover and tanis these guys are so focused on there rigs when they drive very intense it seems chad more so than nathan as far as intensity.

Last edited by rockmike; 04-15-2008 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 04-15-2008, 11:08 AM   #19
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One key I see lost, is practice how you comp.

setup gates, and wok on the transition line from one gate to the next. Free crawling is fun, but doesn't test you!

learned that from h3rsq and grover as well.
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Old 04-15-2008, 11:48 AM   #20
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While I don’t compete often, I feel that your rig’s setup is second to your familiarity with it.

BTW, this is one of the better threads I’ve read on here. It’s a great summary of years worth of experience.
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