Crawler Innovations Proto type 4.75 Dual Stage Lil' Nova Foams for Scale Crawlers

[eric113]

Wow Eddie they look great.

I bet a medium inner would be the ticket for the 7-9lbs truck range.

[diggerj]

Look great, sent a pm the other night before seeing them, let me know.

[rockrigcustoms]

Interested in purchasing these for my rig. Pm sent! Couldn't find on the website yet. Ready to order!

[Gimp]

Was able to get 5 solid hours of testing this weekend. This is the best 1.9 wheel/tire combination I have used and/or seen. Never been weighed, but I think it's around 7.5 lb...

[diggerj]

Thanks for putting in the time testing out the foams. Looking forward to getting a set of them. From the pics looks like they work very well, good flex at the tread and support the side wall as well.

[Nova's Ark]

I finally took some time to do my own testing. Only three sets of the first proto types were made and of those only two have been tested. One set by Gimp and the other set by Eric113. Apparently the set Gimp has he likes. The proto set that Eric got didn't work for him and we came up with a second design that he likes so far. I'm going to try and get the third proto type set back to see if I can test them myself if possible.


In the mean time, one of my local club members was kind enough to loan me his 1.9 Dark Soul OMF bead locks and new set of RC4WD Baja Claws. I had to start from scratch with these. I had to drill the bead locks for venting, weight them, and then mount the tires and foams. All testing is being done on my son's 1.9 Toyota truggy that weighs exactly 8 pounds. This little truck is well tuned and extremely predictable.


Here is a front bead lock finally ready to mount. The total weight for one of the front wheels = Tire+Foam+Bead Lock+Weight is 10 ounces:



For the purpose of testing, I decided to start with the same Version 2 set up Eric113 is using. He is using a 5.5 Double Deuce firm inner with a 4.25T Lil' Nova Dual Stage outer. The inner is narrowed to 1.75 width. Well I did that, and the tire was over stuffed with foam in my opinion. So I ditched the soft outer and ran just the narrowed 5.5 firm inner. Here is the inner foam over the tire to show how much of an air gap is in there since there is no outer foam:



Here you can see the Double Deuce inner (on left), RC4WD stock foam (center), and the Baja Claw (right):



And here is an issue I have with all RC4WD tires. This has been the trend in regards to all rc rock crawling tires for the last few years. Manufacturers are designing the tires to work with poor quality foams by adding / molding in structure to the tire. It is unnecessary and it hurts performance. I understand why they do it, but it is a problem for me as a foam designer. The Baja Claw has the center ribbing and side wall ribbing to increase tire strength for use with a cheap and easily stamped out foam. This limits my options to design foam for it. Pictured below is a stock baja claw inside out and one of my modified 1.9 Rok Lox inside out on the right. You can see where I belt sanded and removed the inner rib from RC4WD. You can also see how much smaller the side wall ribbing is compared to the baja claw:


My modified 1.9 Rok Lox works awesome on rock. Not so well on the trail cause the tire does not clean out well. I use a 4.25T Lil' Nova Dual Stage in it and it's a great combo and seems to be very good across the board. Meaning it's a one size fits all type of dual stage foam. That is NOT going to be the case with 4.75 tall dual stage foams.

[Nova's Ark]

I have been getting a lot of interest about the 4.75 tall dual stage foams. But I have been unwilling and unable to sell any of the foams because there has just not been enough testing. That is why I am finally doing it myself now. I have a lot of doubts, questions and concerns right now which is why I am not rushing a dual stage foam to market.

***One issue of concern is the wide variance in weight among "comp legal" scale trucks. From the information I have collected, I am finding two main categories of scale truck weights.
- Group A is in the 5 pound range
- Group B is in the 8 pound range
I personally own three scale trucks and all of them are 8 pounds or heavier. I'm also finding it difficult to create a foam that will work with both weight categories. I can't afford to have multiple foam designs sitting on the shelf for different weight ranges.


***My next issue of concern is the water. Conventional foams are not designed for water. The foams stretch, and begin deteriorating once they are soaked and left that way. The longest I have gotten out of a set of water logged foams was 6 months and that was with me leaving them alone. The foams, tires and bead locks stayed mounted, untouched and water soaked for 6 months. When they were finally removed, the soft outer was stretched out, and the glue was beginning to fail. I use the best commercial grade glue I can buy but nothing is really set up for water. I have been wanting to get new dies made for 1.9 Dual Stage foams for a long time now, but the high cost as well as low demand has been a hindrance. At least with the 4.25T dual stage foams they fit a large majority of tires. That is not the case with the 4.75 Tall tires. We only have two tires out right now in that height. We also seem to not have a firm set of SORRCA rules and many people are wanting G6 events instead. So I have a problem designing parts for classes that still have not fully gelled. Any rule change and I could get stuck with a product that is no longer needed. On top of that, we still have not addressed the water issue. I am working on some products that will address the water issue for scale trucks once and for all, but we are still a few weeks away from the proto types being finished. And that is another reason why I am not ready to sell a 4.75T dual stage foam.

[Nova's Ark]

I'm really trying to take my time and lay out all these issues and concerns I have. I love my customers and rc rock crawling. I don't like not answering customers who are asking for this product or offering to test it. Please understand I am just one little man running a small store by myself. I have a lot of responsibilities and I just don't have enough time everyday to get everything done or make everyone happy.

I also don't want to seem rude or unappreciative of all that RC4WD is doing for our hobby. At the end of the day, RC4WD has to do what is best for their tire and design it the way they think is best for them. It's just a difference in philosophy. I think tires should be as soft as possible to make the foams do the work, and every Manufacturer thinks the opposite .


OK, so with that disclaimer out of the way, here is my results so far.

:

- My son's SCX-10 based 1.9 Toyota Truggy
- 8 pound weight
- This is a comp truck. It's built to the hilt with everything.
- Front axle:
SDS Customz 300M CVDs
Over Drive HD Axial gears front
Aluminum knuckles and C's
Hand Brothers Steering kit
- Rear axle:
Under drive HD Axial Gears
- Transmission:
Hot Racing Hard Anodized Gears
Crawler Innovations Maxx Trans outputs
Maxx drive shafts
Gearing is 93 tooth spur, 15 tooth pinion
- Electronics:
Holmes Hobbies Crawler Master Pro brushless outrunner
Mamba Max ESC
Castle Creation BEC
Hitec 5955TG steering servo
3S Lipo

I am using this truck to test with because it is deadly consistent. It normally has a set of Mayhem 1.9 bead locks with "cut n shut" narrowed and reduced Pro-Line M2 compound M2K Mashers with 4.25T Lil' Nova Dual Stage foams. The set up is money, both on rock and on the trail. It is probably my favorite scale combo. I have been using it for years on other trucks I have owned.

[TexasSP]

It's nice to see all the work you are putting into this Eddie. Not just specifically the 4.75 market but the whole scale market in general. I am especially excited about what you have coming for use in water as I spend a good amount of time there.

After seeing how you modified the RC4WD tires eliminating the rib and such I will be doing the same. I had thought about it but never was certain it was worth it and after seeing your experience now I feel the push to do it.

I have some flashpoints that I know I can get more performance out of so I look forward to this. They are good performing tires but I just feel they can be better.

[Nova's Ark]

Here is the two test piles of rock I tested on yesterday:

http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/showthread.php?t=307102

***Another disclaimer*** I know these tires work best after being broken in. So I might be asking too much from these tires right out of the box. These tires also don't belong to me so I am limited on modifying them. So I am basically treating them like any other average consumer would do, just bolt them on and go run.


I'm not impressed with these tires. I tried them stock with the supplied foams and the side hill was awful. To be fair, the truck is 8 pounds and that is a lot to ask of a single stage one size fits all foam supplied with the tire. If these tires belonged to me, I would have belt sanded all the ribbing away, removed lugs, and started grooving some of the remaining lugs. I think they would be pretty good then.


So next I tried the Eric113 set up. I mounted up one tire and foam and the feel was over stuffed. So I removed the outer and used only the inner and hit the rocks. Definitely a noticeable improvement. The 1/8 air gap between the tire and inner foam act like a soft outer. Similar to the way Hot Bodies made all their foams short on purpose to create a small are gap in there 2.2 Rover and 2.2 Sedona for more forward bite.

I ran lines on both rock piles. Lines that this truck has easily made before and so do my other scalers. These tires struggled badly with forward bite on the iron ore pile especially. On the second rock pile closer to the house they struggled badly with off camber climbs and descents. They definitely need to get broken in more, but I am also not sure which way to go with the foams now. I'm going to start narrowing the inner foam even more and re-test today. Currently they are 5.5 Double Deuce firm inners narrowed to 1.75 width both front and rear. I'm going to try 1 5/8 front and rear next.


And this leads to another issue. There is no set standard for the machining of 1.9 bead locks. The sizing of 1.9 wheels vary from one manufacturer to another. I am using a 5.5 Double Deuce inner because the opening is big enough to clear the lead weight I have around the plastic spacer since this bead lock is a four piece design. I don't want people stretching foams over the bead locks and not everyone can modify an inner foam for clearance because they either don't have the tools or experience. So I am leaning towards opening up the inner diameter of the foams to compensate for this right out of the box. Thankfully the 2.2 inner size seems perfect so far.

I'm also leaning towards trying a 5.5 D.D. medium inner narrowed in these tires to see how they do.

So with all that said, now what do you consumers want to see designed or made in regards to these tires?

[Nova's Ark]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

It's nice to see all the work you are putting into this Eddie. Not just specifically the 4.75 market but the whole scale market in general. I am especially excited about what you have coming for use in water as I spend a good amount of time there.

After seeing how you modified the RC4WD tires eliminating the rib and such I will be doing the same. I had thought about it but never was certain it was worth it and after seeing your experience now I feel the push to do it.

I have some flashpoints that I know I can get more performance out of so I look forward to this. They are good performing tires but I just feel they can be better.

Belt sand away my friend

The 1.9 Rok Lox I have are belt sanded internally, and have every single lug grooved by hand using a dremel and cut off wheel. The tires works extremely well on rock, but they suck on the trail. They won't clean out even with 4S lipo, mamba max pro and a brushless inrunner. So I don't use the Rok Lox that much. I have found that the 1.9 TSL from Pro-Line to be an awesome all around scale tire just like the cut n shut M2K Mashers I use as well.

I have been removing the ribbing from comp tires as well like the Pink dot Rover and the Khaos buggy and truggy tire. A thin tire carcass works better, but the foam set up has to be tuned properly.

[sierrajim]

Have you tried turning the tyres around? I never got my 1:1 baja claws or pro-comp X terrains to work too well backwards.

[See65]

Eddie, I really appreciate all you do for giving us different foam options. I only run your foams and have had great success with them so when you feel they are ready I will be ready to buy them. Also I am going to be ruuning a set of claws with the little novas in them at the vegas G6 and was wondering if you had any ideas to get a little better performance out of them.My rig weighs 8 1/2 pounds.

[diggerj]

Thanks for putting in the time and work on these. I'm one that has been patiently waiting on a set for the Claws. Your 4.25 dual stage foams are great so I know these will be too once the testing is done and the right combo is found.

[fvrr]

I'll be waiting to see how your testing goes. I also have a set of dark souls with claws and G6 vegas will be it's 3rd run

[diggerj]

I am curious to see if the set up Gimp used on his Bronco posted in this thread will show promise. From the pictures he posted the tires and foams used look to work well and reading through his post he is impressed with them. The thought of water friendly dual stage foam is a great idea and I look forward to them as our hobby will benefit from them greatly. Crawlers, R.C. offroaders and water are kind of a natural. Looking forward to seeing what becomes of both the 4.75 dual stage foam and the potential of water proof foams for sure.

[Gimp]

Hey Eddie, just wanted to let you know the Bronco took 1st place at EPA's scale comp at Money Rocks this Saturday.

Temperature was about 40* and the tires/foams worked flawlessly. Everybody watching was very impressed with the setup




Just wanted to mention that I DO NOT vent my scaler wheels too...

[sierrajim]

Originally Posted by Gimp

Hey Eddie, just wanted to let you know the Bronco took 1st place at EPA's scale comp at Money Rocks this Saturday.

Temperature was about 40* and the tires/foams worked flawlessly. Everybody watching was very impressed with the setup




Just wanted to mention that I DO NOT vent my scaler wheels too...

Agreed 100%, I won our State Scale Series last year with unvented wheels. I just give the tyre a little squeeze before seating the bead. This allows the tyre to bag just like a vented wheel.

Sometimes a little adjustment is needed on a hot day though.

[Jslick]

Gimps tires and foam combo worked great at our first scale comp. It was very cold out and they had no issues, I was very impressed. Watch your back Gimp I am coming for you.

[murky123]

any updates? are these out yet ?