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Old 06-08-2019, 11:58 AM   #1
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Default I.T.S.S the foam alternitive

when i was in the market for tire foams i looked at everything on the market and i dident like the options out there the airfilled sealed tires sucked they bounced like mad and they got holes in th3 sidewall in a run or 2 and dident hold air anymore then its back to foams
i stuffed everything i could think of inside the tires i cut up tire foams i tryed foam BBs it seemed like a good way to go but that was a mess i wouldent wish on anyone then i thought put them in some kind of tube

that just seemed like a problem waiting to happen

then i started thinking abou5 inner tubes but then were back to airfilled and the issues that brings

then it hit me

why not just stick a small tire in a big tire simple and easy

so i tryed it

i took some old over cut worn out ripsaws and stuffed them inside my jconcepts ruptures and instantly blew me away it litteraly doubled the capabulitys of my crawler it litteraly crawled straight up a rock face one spot is over 90 the rig literaly grabed on to the rock and climbed up so ok this is a redcat it dosent take to much to make it better but still thats a huge inprovement

then i stuffed my old austars inside my hyraxs and put them on my heavy 1/8th scaler it weights around 20lbs and although the results werent as good it was definitly a noticable improvement over closed cell foams that were in the tires before and were the rig roled over before it would drive right through with out issue and the turning was better also

the itss worked better than tire foams on every rig i tryed i got better grip better sidehilling and better steering but thats just me



there are several ways to tune this system

you could seal the inner tire to the rim and vent the outer tire

you could vent both inner and outer tire

you could very the size of the inner tire

you could use different compound tires inside

you could use tunning rings between the 2 tires

you could even run foams inside somewere



this is very crude there is alot of room for improvement most of my testing is done using cheap chinese tires inside of good tires but you could cut and shut just about any tire to any size if you realy wanted too

my hope is some one will develope a product that fits the available tire sizes and provide a better shape to conform to the outer tire

im just planting the sead with the hopes that others will take the fruit and and turn it in to a viable product

im sure im not the first person to do this there isent realy anything new here

indont see any way to make money from stuffing 2 tires on 1 rim but if someone can make something more aplication spacific then by all means make as much as you can i reserve nothing for anything about anything here in this post

i dought this will be a option for the comp crawler guys cause there is a fair amount of extra weight but for scalers in my opinion is the best thing since puting a crawler between 2 slices of bread



so to whoever read this far down give it a try im sure you already have the extea tires laying around and post up your opinions and dont worry about hurting my feelings lol






im working on a video on this set up it should be about a day or 2 but its not rocket science

Last edited by ferp420; 06-10-2019 at 08:05 AM.
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Old 06-08-2019, 02:59 PM   #2
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Default Re: I.T.S.S the foam alternitive

Back in the day some people on here used cheap sidewalls from an old tire inside of pitbulls. This gave support and let the soft foams support the tread surface.

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Old 06-10-2019, 09:22 AM   #3
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Default Re: I.T.S.S the foam alternitive

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Originally Posted by TheLetterJ View Post
Closed cell foam has been used in nearly every competitive high speed offroad race motorcycle tire for decades, hardly a light duty application! Michelin was the first big name to bring them to market, which is why they're commonly known as a "Bib Mousse"... "Bib" being the Michelin Man's actual name, and "mousse" being the French (Michelin is a French company) word for foam. Big difference there is that we slather them with silicone grease when mounting to nearly eliminate friction between the tire and mousse. On a high speed bike (some rally bikes can maintain 120mph in the flats) the heat buildup can be a real problem as the foam doesn't get pulverized, it actually expands... like a Peep in the microwave. Most rough-terrain forklifts run foam filled tires too, but hey, what's 30,000lbs?

Continuing with the motorcycle sidebar...

There's several other tube/mousse/foam alternatives out there too. A popular product known as Tubliss uses basically the same concept Ferp420 is using: a small tire stuffed in a big tire. With Tubliss, they basically use a road bicycle tire with a high pressure tube to hold the main tire's beads against the wheel, even with zero pressure in the main tire. Lot's of full size offroad race trucks/buggies also run tire liners that are just an inflated Kevlar bag accomplishing the same thing as the Tubliss does. My KMC 222 wheels came predrilled to accept these liners, Staun sells kits to add them to almost any wheel too.

Another alternative seen in motorcycles is a product called "Tire Balls." They're just a more elegant version of the old (think: late '60's-'80's) racers trick of stuffing a tire full of tennis balls and then mounting. Like Ferp420's idea, it really relies on the rigidity of the insert to support the weight, not really air pressure.

Humvee's have used the "tire in a tire" method since the beginning, originally having a 2 piece magnesium run flat, later switching to a rubber run flat. Both version were heavily coated in grease to reduce friction and allow them to drive at moderate speeds with zero air pressure.

I guess all that is to say that the idea does work. That being said, foam has the unique ability to deaden an impact with virtually no rebound, so while it may make feedback on a motorcycle more vague, I think that is actually a big enough benefit on our rc crawlers to want to stick with foam. I'm sure with some time spent on test & tune, the tire-in-tire method can be tuned in to work desirably, but at this size, foam is working well enough for me to have no desire to change... except those $4!++y, way too soft open cell foams that are included with nearly every crawler tire! You're doing yourself a disservice by not trying something else!

I know that didn't even address venting!
the motorcycles use.the foam for safety you dont want to deal with a flat at 100 mph but ive always been under the impression that they use air as the main sorce for suport and there fazing that out now too there going to the internal beadlock system that you were talking about for cars
forklifts use solid rubber tires these days ive ran a few down to the metal rims some older ones do have foam inside

tha air gap between the 2 tires eliminates the rebound and if the inner tire is vented there wont be any bounce the inne4 tire dos3 the suporting letting the outer tire work on the traction
with foams i notice under heavy loads the tire can role and fold over on itself closed cell foams dont bite in too the tire they have a tendency to slip around inside especialy once they ware in some and they get flat spots and need to be replaced with the inner tire system the outer tire will wrinckle but the inner tire grabs hold of the outer tire taking some load off the bead of the outer tire and wont allow the tire to fold over on itself and helps with the bead pulling off the rim

funny about the tenis balls that was one idea i had smaller of course also making honeycombe inserts like the military is using on the hummers

threse lots of ways to tune this set up but its just a bata test set up and needs to be perfected
im hoping someone on here that can take this idea to the next leval this is about afnfar as im gona take it

Last edited by ferp420; 06-10-2019 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:39 AM   #4
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Default Re: I.T.S.S the foam alternitive

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferp420 View Post
when i was in the market for tire foams i looked at everything on the market and i dident like the options out there the airfilled sealed tires sucked they bounced like mad and they got holes in th3 sidewall in a run or 2 and dident hold air anymore then its back to foams
i stuffed everything i could think of inside the tires i cut up tire foams i tryed foam BBs it seemed like a good way to go but that was a mess i wouldent wish on anyone then i thought put them in some kind of tube

that just seemed like a problem waiting to happen

then i started thinking abou5 inner tubes but then were back to airfilled and the issues that brings

then it hit me

why not just stick a small tire in a big tire simple and easy

so i tryed it

i took some old over cut worn out ripsaws and stuffed them inside my jconcepts ruptures and instantly blew me away it litteraly doubled the capabulitys of my crawler it litteraly crawled straight up a rock face one spot is over 90 the rig literaly grabed on to the rock and climbed up so ok this is a redcat it dosent take to much to make it better but still thats a huge inprovement

then i stuffed my old austars inside my hyraxs and put them on my heavy 1/8th scaler it weights around 20lbs and although the results werent as good it was definitly a noticable improvement over closed cell foams that were in the tires before and were the rig roled over before it would drive right through with out issue and the turning was better also

the itss worked better than tire foams on every rig i tryed i got better grip better sidehilling and better steering but thats just me



there are several ways to tune this system

you could seal the inner tire to the rim and vent the outer tire

you could vent both inner and outer tire

you could very the size of the inner tire

you could use different compound tires inside

you could use tunning rings between the 2 tires

you could even run foams inside somewere



this is very crude there is alot of room for improvement most of my testing is done using cheap chinese tires inside of good tires but you could cut and shut just about any tire to any size if you realy wanted too

my hope is some one will develope a product that fits the available tire sizes and provide a better shape to conform to the outer tire

im just planting the sead with the hopes that others will take the fruit and and turn it in to a viable product

im sure im not the first person to do this there isent realy anything new here

indont see any way to make money from stuffing 2 tires on 1 rim but if someone can make something more aplication spacific then by all means make as much as you can i reserve nothing for anything about anything here in this post

i dought this will be a option for the comp crawler guys cause there is a fair amount of extra weight but for scalers in my opinion is the best thing since puting a crawler between 2 slices of bread



so to whoever read this far down give it a try im sure you already have the extea tires laying around and post up your opinions and dont worry about hurting my feelings lol






im working on a video on this set up it should be about a day or 2 but its not rocket science



I think the (,) and (.) on your keyboard are broken.
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:55 AM   #5
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Default Re: I.T.S.S the foam alternitive

Have you tried full size closed-cell foams and drill holes in them to tune them a bit more to your liking?
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Old 06-10-2019, 10:40 AM   #6
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Default Re: I.T.S.S the foam alternitive

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Originally Posted by Sneetches View Post
Have you tried full size closed-cell foams and drill holes in them to tune them a bit more to your liking?
ya but all that dose is weeken them and cause more flat spots and faster degrading



the bigest advantage to this set up is you dont have to change your foams there a set it and forget it type of deal

no flat spots and no soggy foams and the performance is on par with your average duel stage foam
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Old 06-10-2019, 10:54 AM   #7
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Default Re: I.T.S.S the foam alternitive

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Originally Posted by fyrstormer View Post
Closed-foam inserts have been available for bicycle tires for years and years, but almost nobody uses them because they get ground to dust in a short time. (they are common in light-duty applications like wheelbarrows and self-propelled lawnmowers, though.) However, to my knowledge, nobody who's ever tried closed-cell bicycle tire inserts has also tried the time-tested advice to prevent abrasion between tires and innertubes -- put the innertube in a paper bag with some baby powder (the old-fashioned talcum powder kind, not the new eco-friendly cornstarch kind) and shake it to coat the innertube with powder. Presumably talcum powder would reduce abrasion between tires and closed-cell foam inserts as well.

That being said, I haven't seen closed-cell foam inserts for RC tires suffer from the same kind of abrasion that closed-cell inserts for bicycle tires do, so it might not be a useful suggestion in an RC context anyway.

In any event, using innertubes for RC tires would be way more trouble than it's worth. A tire with a degraded foam insert will still work; a tire with a popped innertube won't work. I know which setup I'd rather be using when I'm in the woods a mile away from my ride home.

As for venting your tires -- unless you can guarantee the tires will never get wet during a run, you should always vent them, even if the rims are also vented. I even vent my non-crawler tires if they're installed on vehicles that I sometimes run in wet weather. Yeah, water gets into the foams easier with vented tires, but it can get out of the foams again without requiring me to dismount the tires (not practical when the tires are glued).

Take all of that with a brick of salt, though; I'm one of those people who really is content to use stock open-cell foams on my crawlers, though they're overstuffed to give them a little more stiffness.
my bike in 1980 had foam filled tires it was like a wetsuit type material used in the day not the new wetsuits
but still a close celled foam i got my bike from a rental company (open air bicycles) they used them for the rental bikes so even if the bike got a flat the customer could still ride the bike im asuming that the new bike foams are more for reliabuility than anything

any type of air filled set up in a rc tire is a bad idea our tires arent belted to hold there shape and deaden the bounce and our rigs arent heavy enuff to take advantage of air filled tires and flats suck even on a rc

ive had close cell foams go bad in about a year in a crawler my problem is my rigs sit on there wheels and i squish them over and over again when i pull them out there about a inch inch around and have about 2 1/2" hole in the center so they no longer sit on the wheel they just float around in the tire
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Old 06-10-2019, 10:57 AM   #8
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Default Re: I.T.S.S the foam alternitive

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I think the (,) and (.) on your keyboard are broken.
i think they work but i dont like emojies so i try to stay away from that stuff
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Old 08-21-2019, 08:52 AM   #9
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Default Re: I.T.S.S the foam alternitive

im starting to see this poping up on utube one guy used this setup an o 1/6 scale build he sead they work fine for that aplication and i agree it looked good in the running vids
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Old 08-21-2019, 12:00 PM   #10
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Default Re: I.T.S.S the foam alternitive

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i think they work but i dont like emojies so i try to stay away from that stuff


LOL. So no..... :Q {(;)}
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Old 08-21-2019, 12:17 PM   #11
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Default Re: I.T.S.S the foam alternitive

I used to do this to those crappy RCs that you get from radio shack; the kind that look like S-10s, but have the wheels stick out of the body. I was more cause I liked mad max-esque stuff when I was growing up, now I think most of that stuff looks like a tetanus shot is required before operation.
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Old 08-21-2019, 12:18 PM   #12
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Default Re: I.T.S.S the foam alternitive

Ok guys, my thoughts are, you made your point, so time to let it go.
Ernie

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Old 08-21-2019, 12:25 PM   #13
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Default Re: I.T.S.S the foam alternitive

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Originally Posted by spoo76 View Post
Back in the day some people on here used cheap sidewalls from an old tire inside of pitbulls. This gave support and let the soft foams support the tread surface.

I got a set wheel/tires that have those crawler innovations tuning discs on the inside sidewall, and the outside sidewall and they sandwich lil Nova 4.50 soft foams.
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Old 08-21-2019, 02:51 PM   #14
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I got a set wheel/tires that have those crawler innovations tuning discs on the inside sidewall, and the outside sidewall and they sandwich lil Nova 4.50 soft foams.
I read your post several times...still dont get it I think Ferp got a point there somewhere but the baseline is that tires and foams have a lot room to be better...right?
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Old 08-22-2019, 11:51 AM   #15
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Default Re: I.T.S.S the foam alternitive

Good ideas Ferp420, glad to see peeps trying different approaches. Yes, iI've seen forklift tires that are solid rubber with a less dense closed cell foam-like material inside, maybe less weight, expense and save a little weight? Usually forklift goal is to be heavier to avoid tipping over though.
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Old 08-23-2019, 06:58 AM   #16
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the baseline is that tires and foams have a lot room to be better...right?
you got it

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Originally Posted by Natedog View Post
Good ideas Ferp420, glad to see peeps trying different approaches. Yes, iI've seen forklift tires that are solid rubber with a less dense closed cell foam-like material inside, maybe less weight, expense and save a little weight? Usually forklift goal is to be heavier to avoid tipping over though.
thanks man i tryed just about every foam out there then made my own at least when i flated my home made foams it dident cost me $30 i kinda gave up it then kinda not realy thinking stuffed a tire in a tire

i realy like the proline honney comb set up take the tread off and make it a insert like a foam and i think they have something

Last edited by ferp420; 08-23-2019 at 07:06 AM.
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Old 08-23-2019, 11:02 AM   #17
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Default Re: I.T.S.S the foam alternitive

Maybe some 3D whizz here could print something innovative
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w-9KvBHago

Last edited by themountain; 08-23-2019 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 08-23-2019, 11:37 AM   #18
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Maybe some 3D whizz here could print something innovative
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w-9KvBHago
ya man i hope it happens they have rubber filiment i dont have a 3d printer or know how to use one lol
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