Machinist opinions BOBCAD 24

[sickcivic95]

I'm new to operating/programing but have been around mills and lathes for a while. I have experience running my bridgeport mill as well as some other manual mills and lathes. But Ive never run cnc setup or programming.

We own two haas SL30 lathes and two haas vf5 mills and I am taking a course on program/operating over a 6 week period. Its not a full class just basics and a sort of tune-up or refresher for my other operator. I was asked if I'd like to join in and of course I'm not going to turn down free training.

We use bobcad V24 for our programming and I've heard a lot of good things about it, I'm just wondering if there is any tips or pointers you guys may have for a newb... I know there is a newer version out but I'm just not looking to spill out 2k for it quite yet when what we have works good..


I'm also doing some self learning on vector which is what we use for prints etc etc if this makes any difference. I'd like to eventually take my ideas draw them them turn into print and write the codes for them, and run them through. I know I'm way off from this point, but time patience and learning will hopefully prevail.

Thanks for any tips input Etc that may helpme out.


--Dan

[SMR 510RR]

I have never used that CAM package but they are really all the same with slight differences. I have used MasterCam and CamWorks and prefer CamWorks (I know most people are the other way around) and honestly to be a good programmer is all about cutting parts. I too took some classes and honestly left with more questions than answers, they didnt cover much in the way of order of operations, feeds and speeds, or anything else that a programmer needs to know. While I was in school I worked as an operator at a job shop and I watched every program run, my boss was a good programmer and I picked up on what he was doing. After all of that I got a job prototyping at a medical device company, bluffed my way into the position and I was in way over my head but I just kept going and wound up programming and making a ton of small stainless parts. The last year I worked there I programmed on average 3-4 parts per day, while the last one was running I would program the next one.

No two parts are the same and over time you will develop little tricks that you like you use, I call it style. Every machinist has their own style and if you give two guys the same part and have them program it their programs will never be the same.

The best thing you can do is program the parts a bit conservative, watch the part run and when I say watch I mean watch. Stand there for the full cycle, stop after every tool and check it out...As you go keep a mental note about where it seems like you are wasting time and make adjustments. Keep doing that until you get the part to where it seems like every toolpath is efficient and it makes sense. I cant tell you the number of times I have cut cycle times down by 25% or more by changing the order of things, roughing with a bigger tool, or making other adjustments to a program.

Its a great field to get into, while all these kids are going to college all the skilled trades are in need of new blood, in the future I expect that we will get respect again.

[tom@vp]

Mastercam .....

[rlockwood]

Originally Posted by sickcivic95

I'm new to operating/programing but have been around mills and lathes for a while. I have experience running my bridgeport mill as well as some other manual mills and lathes. But Ive never run cnc setup or programming.

We own two haas SL30 lathes and two haas vf5 mills and I am taking a course on program/operating over a 6 week period. Its not a full class just basics and a sort of tune-up or refresher for my other operator. I was asked if I'd like to join in and of course I'm not going to turn down free training.

We use bobcad V24 for our programming and I've heard a lot of good things about it, I'm just wondering if there is any tips or pointers you guys may have for a newb... I know there is a newer version out but I'm just not looking to spill out 2k for it quite yet when what we have works good..


I'm also doing some self learning on vector which is what we use for prints etc etc if this makes any difference. I'd like to eventually take my ideas draw them them turn into print and write the codes for them, and run them through. I know I'm way off from this point, but time patience and learning will hopefully prevail.

Thanks for any tips input Etc that may helpme out.


--Dan

ugh. I have mixed feelings about bobcad. I'm the sole CNC programmer and prototype machinist at an engineering company, supporting over 12 mechanical engineers. I've used bobcad since v17-- it used to be a simple and functional program. Even now, v24/v25 have very powerful tools, and I was never given a part that couldnt be made with bobcad.

But there are issues. If you intend to keep an organized tool library, or be able to simulate your toolpath, forget about it. The tool library will generate loads of extra tools, duplicate tools-- tools will go missing when changing from job to job. Their simulation is incredibly inaccurate and inflexible. The whole time, you will be beta-testing a product that you paid for. Support consists of "yeah, we know about that issue, and we'll fix it.. but for now here is a workaround" -- and thats for hundreds of issues.

but, these issues are less important if you're programming one or two parts a month, etc.

As for bobcad tips and tricks, I have the unfortunate pleasure of knowing that software intimately..

Contours are your friend. Geometry selection is awful in bobcad, but becomes managable if you create a contour chain for each bit of geometry you'll be using.

Dont try and manage a material library, If you switch between material libraries frequently, it will eventually spit out steel spindle speeds with aluminum feeds-- not good. Just save a spindle speed/feed rate with a tool, and choose that tool from the library.

Meanwhile, do everything you can to get a copy of Solidworks, and HSMXpress-- its better in every way imaginable.

also, I frankly disagree about Mastercam. Its very powerful, but horrendous to use-- never gets TRULY updated, and feels like it was made in 1992 (oh wait.. it was.) Better than Bobcad though.

[SMR 510RR]

Never did like mastercam haha, everyone around here thinks it is the best thing since sliced bread because it is "more powerful"...Never had trouble making a part with CamWorks.

I highly recommend Solidworks and CamWorks, I really like that it is integrated right in solidworks and you can update your toolpaths when the parts change without any additional steps.

Sounds like BobCad is a POS that I would try to avoid at all costs haha.

[C41xracer]

I use v24, i can say its user friendly and the videos that come with it to teach you how to use it help. Im probably switching to gibs in the near future but for basic programming v24 should do you just fine

[SMR 510RR]

Without simulation CAM is useless...That is one of the most important features at least to me.

[C41xracer]

Originally Posted by SMR 510RR

Without simulation CAM is useless...That is one of the most important features at least to me.

I definatly agree, it helps out alot with programming and making sure the tools are doing what you want.

[C*H*U*D]

Originally Posted by tom@vp

Mastercam .....

GibbsCAM....

[rlockwood]

Originally Posted by SMR 510RR

Never did like mastercam haha, everyone around here thinks it is the best thing since sliced bread because it is "more powerful"...Never had trouble making a part with CamWorks.

I highly recommend Solidworks and CamWorks, I really like that it is integrated right in solidworks and you can update your toolpaths when the parts change without any additional steps.

Sounds like BobCad is a POS that I would try to avoid at all costs haha.

I was finally able to convince my work of that fact. It has deeper issues than I want to get into here as well, they cant even manage to maintain backwards compatibility with their own software.

at any rate, when it came time to switch, the cam packages we looked at most closely all ran inside of solidworks. I gave Camworks a shot, but to be honest I was already sold on HSMWorks. We also looked at mastercam again, and even had the local rep come out and try to demonstrate how "easy" it was to update revisions when a .sldprt went through sweeping changes.. I think he realized he'd lost the sale when I showed him how fast it went in HSM.

[BigSki]

Just curious if anyone is using CATIA? I was given a student version a few years ago. I was making slow progress w/ it ( using the work books for it) but after loosing my job w/ the company that gave me the software, I have no one to turn to when I get stuck.

[SMR 510RR]

Originally Posted by rlockwood

I was finally able to convince my work of that fact. It has deeper issues than I want to get into here as well, they cant even manage to maintain backwards compatibility with their own software.

at any rate, when it came time to switch, the cam packages we looked at most closely all ran inside of solidworks. I gave Camworks a shot, but to be honest I was already sold on HSMWorks. We also looked at mastercam again, and even had the local rep come out and try to demonstrate how "easy" it was to update revisions when a .sldprt went through sweeping changes.. I think he realized he'd lost the sale when I showed him how fast it went in HSM.

From looking at their website it is fairly similar to CamWorks...Having your Cam and Cad be tied in together is the only way to go, its even more important if you are in a fast iteration prototyping position where they will always make 5 versions of the same thing. In CamWorks it is as easy as double clicking on the features that you want to update, they update and you are ready to rock. Of course if the part changed enough there is some need for user input but even so it is still minimal.

Every Cam packing is similar and if you are good at using one you will probably transfer to another relatively smoothly. The thing that I have noteced about all software is that none of them are perfect and you have to learn what they want to do and what they dont want to do and use that information to your advantage.

[JohnRobHolmes]

Are there any 4 axis cam programs that integrate into SW?

[tom@vp]

There are a few, Delcam i believe is one of the better ones. which i have ben eyeballing because they do advanced multiaxis lathe programing well, which mastercam does not.

Problem with cad cams is most can do basic stuff, its when you NEED to pull off a trick part and all of a sudden you cant, or the main point is being able to work through a bug where the software just isnt producing the path you need.

It takes a few years to be competent and to have to start over because you waisted your time on imcompitent software is a big pain rather than just advancing with the advanced software.

I actually wish someone would come in and spank mastercam hard like they deserve, they have been arogent and do not listen to their customer base, are stupid about their machine posts. and have taken the software into a general direction that makes it less effieient than it used to be. especially for the newer guys, but thats another debate.

Untill then mastercam has complete domination hold on the market because it is the best for most people right now. No one has come reasonably close to knocking them off their market postition...

[SMR 510RR]

Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes

Are there any 4 axis cam programs that integrate into SW?

CamWorks will do up to 5 axis, I have personally programmed 4 axis on it and it works well. I have done both basic 4 axis indexing (program say 4 sides of a part and then index the part during the machining process to go between all 4 sides), Rotary milling (spin the part while milling it at a constant depth), and full 4 axis milling (spin the part and mill it while usiing xyz all at the same time). It does have a learning curve but I can answer questions for anyone if they have any...It likes everything to be setup just right or it will do weird things when you post it out, you have to make an axis within SolidWorks that represents the 4th axis line and a couple other things. Once you have set it up on a couple parts you will be good to go.

They break their licensing down so that indexing is one thing, rotary milling is another, and full 4 axis is yet another license. Most people would probably be good with just indexing (hell you could add the indexing code in by hand if that is all you wanted to do) and maybe rotary milling depending on what you are going to use your 4th axis for.

[tom@vp]

camworks looks interesting...

[rlockwood]

Originally Posted by SMR 510RR

From looking at their website it is fairly similar to CamWorks...Having your Cam and Cad be tied in together is the only way to go, its even more important if you are in a fast iteration prototyping position where they will always make 5 versions of the same thing. In CamWorks it is as easy as double clicking on the features that you want to update, they update and you are ready to rock. Of course if the part changed enough there is some need for user input but even so it is still minimal.

Every Cam packing is similar and if you are good at using one you will probably transfer to another relatively smoothly. The thing that I have noteced about all software is that none of them are perfect and you have to learn what they want to do and what they dont want to do and use that information to your advantage.

yeah, I narrowed it down to camworks and hsmworks. I preferred HSM, and the way they broke down their packages made more sense for us. I.e. the camworks quote came in nearly double the HSM one..The scenario you depicted (fast iteration prototyping) is exactly where I sit.. each iteration of a part will appear similar, but will have been tweaked in literally every dimension and profile-- a nightmare to attempt to re-use existing programming in bobcad, but a breeze in any integrated solidworks package.

I've had a few small issues with the software, but have had excellent experience speaking with a developer, having them understand what the issue is, and often times issuing a BUG FIX (not a work-around) on the same day

HSMWorks will do full 4/5 axis programming, and is also incredibly well suited to 3+2 style positioning (or simple 4-axis positioning)

HSMWORKS - OPEN POCKETS - YouTube

this is a video that I think breaks down alot of the simplicity of the program, as well as the beauty of their toolpath generation-

I believe a seat of Solidworks is roughly the same price as Bobcad, depending on the deal you get from your pestering bobcad salesmen. Its unfair to compare Bobcad with mastercam, camworks, delcam, or HSM, as each of those packages are several times more expensive.It IS fair to compare HSMXpress or CamworksXpress with bobcad, and either of those options blow it out of the water-- keep in mind, Solidworks is VERY powerful for developing workholding/fixturing.

In summary, I believe bobcad is one of the worst CAM packages available. With that said, its also one of the most affordable, and is capable of producing very impressive code. What it is not capable of, is providing a workable user interface and intuitive workflow. Virtually every other package on the market will produce fewer scrapped parts and broken tools, and do so in a significantly faster and more reliable manor.

[SMR 510RR]

That looks solid, Camworks has a similar workflow but it looks like HSM has very different toolpaths. It looks like they are using constant engagement style or machining vs. more traditional inside out pocketing etc. I know CamWorks added some of that new fancy stuff but at the pace we were cranking out parts we just kept doing what was working. CamWorks did have the more automatic style of feature-toolpath generation but I preferred to go more manual so I could get exactly what I wanted out of it.

HSM looks like a solid choice, if the price is really 1/2 of CamWorks I would buy it in a heartbeat. The one think I will say about CamWorks is that it is always has some little bugs that are annoying more than anything and their lack of "stock" post processors is a nightmare. We had to make several modifications to our post to get it to perform well in 3D milling (it was outputting short lines rather than arcs in the XZ YZ planes to the point that our machine would choke on all the code and slow way down) and it was a royal pain in the butt. This should have been solved by a good stock post processor but we had to go through the reseller and although I can work with G-Code I have no idea what the hell that post code was. Very frustrating when the engineers need everything yesterday! I feel your pain there!

[rlockwood]

it indeed uses a constant engagement style toolpath, but like most other packages it has options for more "legacy" style toolpath. One of the drawbacks of any of these advanced toolpath generators is file size. They typically generate ideal code as splines, then rasterize the splines to line segments, then attempt to arc-fit to some tolerance.. file size goes through the roof. Its not much of an issue, but "data starving" can be a serious issue..

I should also stress that HSMWorks is not "half as much" as camworks, I believe they are both similarly priced-- in our case, we didnt buy a "full blown" version of HSM, and to get the features we wanted out of Camworks required a quote that was twice as much.. we were simply being "forced" to buy features we didnt have the capability of using. I forget exactly where the issue came up, but I believe at the time "4th axis indexing" and "simultaneous 4/5axis" were lumped together in camworks, while in HSM, indexing is included with the 3-axis package. Something along those lines..

[SMR 510RR]

Originally Posted by rlockwood

it indeed uses a constant engagement style toolpath, but like most other packages it has options for more "legacy" style toolpath. One of the drawbacks of any of these advanced toolpath generators is file size. They typically generate ideal code as splines, then rasterize the splines to line segments, then attempt to arc-fit to some tolerance.. file size goes through the roof. Its not much of an issue, but "data starving" can be a serious issue..

I should also stress that HSMWorks is not "half as much" as camworks, I believe they are both similarly priced-- in our case, we didnt buy a "full blown" version of HSM, and to get the features we wanted out of Camworks required a quote that was twice as much.. we were simply being "forced" to buy features we didnt have the capability of using. I forget exactly where the issue came up, but I believe at the time "4th axis indexing" and "simultaneous 4/5axis" were lumped together in camworks, while in HSM, indexing is included with the 3-axis package. Something along those lines..

That is very strange about those things getting lumped together...We only had 4 axis indexing and then upgraded to a full 4 axis license. It is a cool setup because you could have 2 2.5 axis licenses (normal milling), 1 3 axis licence (3d profiling) and 1 4 axis license and then you can have 2 programmers working at the same time and then you just activate the additional licenses when you need to. Works out very well to not have to buy multiple seats of everything, I guess that would be the upside to their licensing strategy.

My guess is that the resellers are able to set things up the way they want to and yours decided that 4 axis is one thing when in reality it is actually 3 seperate licenses (indexing, rotary, and full blown 4 axis) that all operate independent of one another.

Another option for people to consider would be SolidWorks version of cam, SolidCam. I dont have any experience with it but I belive it is rather inexpensive when compared with some of the other options we have talked about. Not sure how capable it is, I believe that it is slightly scaled down and more for novice users and that might actually be a selling point to some of the weekend warriors.