Metal bending, brazing - if you bought again what would you get?

[IPT]

Hey guys - I think I am interested in trying my hand at making some cages, maybe some floors and firewalls. Figure I could sell it to the wife by making some planters and wall racks for her from metal tubing too .

I see there are some decent pipe benders like Harley recommended for about $50. An electronic start brazing kit looks to be about the same at HD or Lowes. So knowing what you know now, and trying not to break the bank what products would you recommend? I pretty sure I don't want to drop money on a TIG or other high end welder. It's not an absolute not, but this is only a hobby and I actually like the painting and cosmetic side of things more then the frame building stuff. At least I do at this point .

Help me not make mistakes in buying something only to realize it's not what I really need or want. I have a habit of rushing in only to upgrade later. Still, if a $50 bender will get the job done I don't want to spend more.

[Highmark]

The bender kind of depends on what you plan on building with - if you're using rod you can get away with a vice or damn near anything. If you're using tube you need something more sophisticated like a decent brake line bender. Really though it comes down to experimenting and figuring out what works for you.

Torch wise I love my smith, but that's like a $400 setup. The torch's from Lowes work fine if you can keep your joints far enough apart to keep them from melting.

IMO the biggest struggle in tube stuff is keeping things square and symmetrical. The joints and bending tube really aren't the hard part.

[kona_joe]

I have a few different style tube benders but my Imperial 3/16 bender (Ebay Link) is the one i use the majority of the time. It has a 7/16" centerline bend radius for making tight bends with 3/16" tubing.

I already had the oxygen and acetylene torch setup in my garage from working on 1:1s but my brazing setup consists of...

244 CuFt Oxygen cylinder
BBQ Grille Propane Tank
Oxygen & Acetylene Regulators
Acetylene Regulator to Propane Tank Adapter
Smith Little Torch

If you didnt want to invest in all of that you could go with the Gentec jeweler's torch kit (Ebay Link) it's reasonably priced for $150 and it includes regulators that work on 1lb bottles. All you need then are the 1lb gas bottles to be up and running, around $15 for propane & oxygen cylinders at Home Depot. The only down fall would be the small bottles.

Hope this helps

[IPT]

thanks guys, yeah that's a start. Guess at the end of the day practice is going to be where it's at. There is also the option of doing some Nylon rod or Delrin. Another beast all together and probably comes with it's own set of challenges.

So Highmark have you learned any tricks you care to share with regards to keeping it all squared up?

[Tio Loco]

I have the 'Harley' bender and it works great. For short pieces that don't reach the pins on that one I picked up this HF one.

1/8" to 1/4" Tube Bender

I found that the general purpose brazing kits work, but kinda like trying to use a sledge hammer to hang pictures. The large flame is not well suited to the tiny joints (often in close proximity to another joint) that we need. I tried to cheap out (several times, still have a butane mini torch, MAPP torch, and MAPP OXY torch that will all be headed for CL) but in the end, the Smith Little Torch is the ticket.

[kona_joe]

Originally Posted by Tio Loco

I found that the general purpose brazing kits work, but kinda like trying to use a sledge hammer to hang pictures. The large flame is not well suited to the tiny joints (often in close proximity to another joint) that we need.

Exactly

This joint i did on my mud truck build is a perfect example. Sorry a little blurry since its zoomed in. I added the 1/8 rod (red arrow) to the 3/16 upright tubing afterwards. The small flame allows you to concentrate the heat and flux in a confined area without disturbing other joints (blue arrow). You can also see the black residue left on the steel that indicates the joint was heated up at one point.

[IPT]

so with that Gentec it says for MAPP and Propane. Is it always required to mix two gases? I think I've read Oxygen and acetlyne burn the hottest. Are there any different safety concerns with a particular gas or gas mixture or is the safety aspect generally universal? Ease of getting refills? Being a hobby I need safe and easy?

So if I understand you guys this will work Shop BernzOmatic Map-Pro Kit at Lowes.com but it will be quite broad making tight work difficult? Thus getting one of the other mentioned small Jewler tips with 2 regulators and two separate fuel sources is recommended? Is there not a simple setup available with one fuel source (like the the ones I linked) where a small tip device could be attached? Maybe something like this? http://www.eastwood.com/3-in-1-preci...FU1ffgod3RIASA

Forgive my ignorance as I learn! Appreciate you all sharing your knowledge.

[northkona]

As said previously , the Smith little torch is the best but it does involve the ongoing cost of bottle hire and the purchase price of the setup. The disposable oxy/acet bottles work out pretty expensive pretty quick.
the Bernz Mapp torch is very hot but the flame is huge and useless for fine work.
that small torch won't get enough heat to get your silver solder flowing.
Another cheap option is a fine torch and propane , I have used a BBQ gas bottle and a flexible hose with a POL fitting on one end and a BOM fitting on the other to build a few chassis with brake line and silver solder
A few important notes , fishmouth all your joins (no gaps) , find a good Flux paste, use 45% silver solder ,clean all the ends and get a few magnets or a third hand helper to hold tubes in place.
This is a good cheap setup that will get you building stuff but is still not the best for adding tubes close to another join. The flame is still quite large. Give it a go

[IPT]

Originally Posted by northkona

Another cheap option is a fine torch and propane , I have used a BBQ gas bottle and a flexible hose with a POL fitting on one end and a BOM fitting on the other to build a few chassis with brake line and silver solder.

A few important notes , fishmouth all your joins (no gaps) , find a good Flux paste, use 45% silver solder ,clean all the ends and get a few magnets or a third hand helper to hold tubes in place.
This is a good cheap setup that will get you building stuff but is still not the best for adding tubes close to another join. The flame is still quite large. Give it a go

This sounds like a starting place for me to get my feet wet. I already have an extra propane tank from the BBQ. So what is the POL and BOM fitting? When you say "fine torch" can you guide me to what your talking about? Would I just search for "fine propane torch"? Would that torch have a regulator on it, or would I need one? I assume that using the valve on the canister itself is not safe or recommended?

Thanks for the other tips too.

[northkona]

I'm hoping the fitting names are the same in US as in Australia but the BOM fitting is the same , they attach to all the Mapp a propane bottles. The POL fitting is what we use here for the BBQ propane with a left hand thread. For the torch , make sure it is OK to use with propane, the Mapp ones seem to block up after a while. Search for fine torch and yes they have a valve on them and sometimes a piezo.

[IPT]

something like this?
\Amazon.com: Mag-Torch MT200C Propane Pencil Flame Burner Torch: Home Improvement

or this - says 1/2 wide.

http://www.amazon.com/BernzOmatic-Ba...0Y9444EZWT52VA


Is there a legitimate concern about the propane not burning hot enough to braze? I've read that here and there. Am I better off spending the $60 for a MAPP setup from HD or Lowes just to see if I like it though I won't be able to do detail stuff? I know I won't be able to do fine stuff but should be able to make a bumper or play around and see if I like it at least? Guess my concern is the Propane won't be hot enough even though i ahve a small enough flame and I'll get turned off to it. I just don't know if a hotter but broader MAPP set would be better to start or a Propane setup that might not be hot enough but be finer. Decisions, decisions...

[IPT]

Interesting. Look like the Little Smith torch can be used with Propane. Could spring for the torch and use my Propane tank. I'm sure I could sell the torch easily here if I didn;t do much with it. Would propane be enough though especially this small of a flame to braze? Could I use the disposable tanks at HD or Lowes to run the little smith?

Miller Smith Little Torch 23-1014 Jeweler's Torch Use With Disposable Tanks

[northkona]

That 1/2 inch Bernzomatic torch is the one I use , I also have a similar one with a peizo that I prefer.
Here is a chassis I built with Propane and some welds with Mapp, whatever was handy at the time. You can do multiple joins , you just have to do them in the right order and make sure it is braced. 3/16 and 1/4 tube is no problem with the Propane.
The northkona Erik Miller 4421 Ultra4
Those disposable bottles are a very expensive way to go and I wouldnt waste my time with them , try this setup first . Its cheap, it works and you will be making all sorts of stuff in no time. Spend more on quality 45% solder and flux .
This is the hose I use from the bbq bottle to the torch. Like I said I dont know what bbq bottle fittings you have so it may not work.
Tradeflame Torch Extension Hose Kit POL to CGA600 I/N 5910248 | Bunnings Warehouse

[JohnRobHolmes]

I really like my Smith torch, but it doesn't play nice with acetylene with the stock tips.


If I were buying equipment again, I would go for a pulse welder. I also wish that thinner filler material was available when I first started, its so damn handy to use smaller filler I ended up having a few pounds drawn up for me in 0.031" diameter. Holmes Hobbies LLC I fixed a 1cm hole in one of my workers motorcycle tanks last week with it.

[pastimesteve]

Originally Posted by IPT

Interesting. Look like the Little Smith torch can be used with Propane. Could spring for the torch and use my Propane tank. I'm sure I could sell the torch easily here if I didn;t do much with it. Would propane be enough though especially this small of a flame to braze? Could I use the disposable tanks at HD or Lowes to run the little smith?

IPT, I don't have an answer for you, but it triggered a question I've had regarding the Smith Little Torch. I'm a complete newb at this, so excuse the potentially dumb question. Do you have to hook this torch up to two tanks, or can you use only one -- say a MAPP disposable from Lowe's. The information on the seller's web site isn't very clear on this.

Thanks,
Steve

[IPT]

Originally Posted by pastimesteve

IPT, I don't have an answer for you, but it triggered a question I've had regarding the Smith Little Torch. I'm a complete newb at this, so excuse the potentially dumb question. Do you have to hook this torch up to two tanks, or can you use only one -- say a MAPP disposable from Lowe's. The information on the seller's web site isn't very clear on this.

Thanks,
Steve

Good question. It says it can be used with propane. I was wondering the same thing though, can it be used with just Propane using only one fitting or does it require both hoses and mixed gas to always be used? Anyone know?

FWIW I bought the 60 MAPP/Pro set up from Lowes. Figure I'll try a few larger items and see if I even like brazing. Looks like plenty of folks have made some cool stuff with that setup so for starters it''ll work. If I get into it looks like the Little Smith will be the next step.

[IPT]

Originally Posted by northkona

That 1/2 inch Bernzomatic torch is the one I use , I also have a similar one with a peizo that I prefer.

peizo? Link to that?

[northkona]

Tradeflame TF/ULTRA GAS Performance Gas Stainless Steel Blowtorch With Piezo I/N 5910236 | Bunnings Warehouse

[vwdaveb]

With the Smith (I have a used Smith I bought on ebay and a knock off I like) you have to have oxygen to mix to make brazing flame. Now with that I have a question: Why does no one use brass/bronze brazing rods? I have some Sivl 56 from homles and bought some 45 from a weldind ing shop. The brzing rods seem to be strong just more cleaning up of the joint. We use to braze everything when I done bodywork in the 80's.