Do I want a 3d printer, or CNC router

[IPT]

Ok, very broad topic, I know...however I have zero experience with either. I'm not even clear on my goals yet, so that makes it tough. I am in my initial research phase. I also realize a CNC router setup will be 5-6x as much as the printer (likely $1K give or take a few hundred).

My goal is hobby and craft stuff. I like the idea of being able to use aluminum because I like to custom paint/powder coat. I would like to do plaques, with raised and recessed text. Would be cool to do aluminum wheels but I think with the $1K CNC systems I would be limited to body panels and maybe bead lock rings. I'd like to do RC parts. Maybe cut out body panels, and accessories. One concern with a 3d printer is the surface is not totally smooth on the finished product. For paint that is not great once you apply any glossy finish.

Maybe I want both, and it seems like the 3D printer can be had quite cheap to start with. Are the software's similar in any way? I anticipate the CAD stuff for the CNC will be a big learning curve. How about for the 3 Printers?

I know it's a broad topic, and maybe even apples to oranges, but anyone with experience with either or both i am all ears to what you have to say. What are your experiences, suggestions, and thoughts?

[drzoo2]

Originally Posted by IPT

Would be cool to do aluminum wheels but I think with the $1K CNC systems I would be limited to body panels and maybe bead lock rings. I'd like to do RC parts. Maybe cut out body panels, and accessories. One concern with a 3d printer is the surface is not totally smooth on the finished product. For paint that is not great once you apply any glossy finish.

I have both and you right on with that statement. There are ways to fix the texture of the printed part for painting. A $1K CNC is not going to EASILY make you wheels but bead locks are well within scope.

I just completed a build project that utilized both and it was great to have the ability to make most of the parts to make my thought a reality. 3D printing is easier IMO as it seems to be way more adopted than carving. Could be based on the fact I had already learned tool paths when I stated carving. Depending on the quality of the printer and the company behind it, you will most certainly be able to print something immediately. Slicer settings are the hardest part. If you purchase something like a Prusa kit, you can pretty much print out of the box. Generally the cheaper the kit (more hobbiest) the more tweaking you will have to do. Because printing is so popular, chances are you will be able to find a profile for your Slicer that will give you decent results immediately.


I use a fully "Open Source" tool chain. A lot of people love Fusion 360 which is free to hobbiest. I'm a Linux guy so no Fusion for me. Below is MY approach. There area million different software packages and methods.

For CNC I use:
I mostly do 2.5 carving/milling
Librecad: 2D CAD https://librecad.org/

HeeksCNC for Toolpath creation https://sites.google.com/site/heekscad/

Chilipeppr: Gcode Sender ChiliPeppr - Hardware Fiddle


Freecad: 3D modeling https://www.freecadweb.org/


For Printing I use:
Freecad: 3D modeling https://www.freecadweb.org/

Slic3R: Gcode creation Slic3r - G-code generator for 3D printers

Printrun: Gcode Sender Printrun: Pure Python 3d printing host software




I started with the CNC router from X-Carve.....

(I moved my office in my kids old room and I can't bring myself to paint over the murals)


For Christmas I purchased a very inexpensive ...$200 3D printer.





Couple of examples of my build using both tools. Most parts are my design but some are from Thingiverse.

Motor and tranny mounts are printed. Shock hoops were cut on the X-carve.




Printed Tcase on ABS



Motor plate I designed and cut to reorient the transmission




Shameless link to full build thread:
A Tale of... SCX based Chevy and the Rebuild

[IPT]

Originally Posted by drzoo2

I have both and you right on with that statement. ]

Dr Zoo2 - thanks for the input! Exactly what I was looking for. Killer build, impressive.

Some more questions if I may.

What aluminum did you use for the motor plate and shock hoops?
The X Carve gets good reviews, as does Shapeoko 3 (that is expandable?), and the Bobs CNC E3. Where all of these available when you purchased and if so what made you go the route that you did?

What were your programming and computer skills when you started? I am proficient with Adobe PS, and I can clunk my way around in Illustrator (a vector program). I've tinkered with Google Sketchup. What was your experience when you entered this world (vs now)? Favorite resources or recommenced reading for me to do?

Thanks again.

As an aside, I see the CNC for sure. I'd like to do stuff like carving into the wood on my banister, wall plaques and stuff. I'm just not sure if the 3D printer would ease the transition or if I should just jump right to the CNC (or vice versa). Seems to my uneducated self that the amount of programming / software usage and machine setup is more complex with more understanding and steps required with CNC than 3D printing but that could just be my lack of knowledge.

[IPT]

oh, and there are some great reviews of this 3D printer. Is this too "hobbiest"? Monoprice MP Select Mini 3D Printer V2, Black.

I've made the mistake of buying small and regretting down the road only to buy better. As I said I see CNC for sure, but I think I "need" both. Thankfully, within reason I have the finances so the $2-300 either way won't break the bank.

[drzoo2]

Originally Posted by ipt

What aluminum did you use for the motor plate and shock hoops?

I took it out of the scrap bin at work. I will have to look up the material tomorrow for you. I'm sure it's relatively mild as it began life as chassis material for our products.

The x carve gets good reviews, as does shapeoko 3 (that is expandable?), and the bobs cnc e3. Where all of these available when you purchased and if so what made you go the route that you did?

I ended up with the 1mx1m Xcarve as I wanted a larger surface area. For cutting Al, I should have gone with the smaller work area. It would have been more rigid. I wanted an over all mill for the same reason your looking at them. Hobbies, woodwork, ect....

What were your programming and computer skills when you started? I am proficient with adobe ps, and i can clunk my way around in illustrator (a vector program). I've tinkered with google sketchup. What was your experience when you entered this world (vs now)? Favorite resources or recommenced reading for me to do?

I was decent at 2D cad (librecad) as I used it for various projects, viewing DXF files for work. Once I started learning Freecad and 3d modeling, this was a steep learning curve. It was difficult but I stuck with it. I used Youtube and the freecad forums to help me through it. Most use Fusion and there are tons of help on this software. I'm a Linux guy so I started with Freecad. I would suggest Fusion. If you decide to go Freecad, I can give you a few pointers.

Originally Posted by ipt

oh, and there are some great reviews of this 3d printer. Is this too "hobbiest"? Monoprice mp select mini 3d printer v2, black.

I think there are some people on here that use this printer. Hopefully someone jumps in with a review. Here are two resources for 3D printing. I think Maker's Muse has a review on this.


https://www.youtube.com/user/TheMakersMuse/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/ThomasSanladerer/videos

I've made the mistake of buying small and regretting down the road only to buy better. As i said i see cnc for sure, but i think i "need" both. Thankfully, within reason i have the finances the $2-300 either was won't break the bank.

I wish I would have done my homework and gone with a different printer. It's worked and I've learned a ton but there are better printers for the money than the one I purchased. It's was impulse at the time as my wife needed a Christmas gift for me and I had been mulling over a printer. No regrets. Just wish I would have been better informed at the time.

[IPT]

Originally Posted by drzoo2

A lot of people love Fusion 360 which is free to hobbiest.

That looks like it would be awesome, but I did not see a "free" version for hobbyists. Maybe people are doing the 3 year free student version (or I'm missing it somehow). I think the Fusion 360 (after investing the time to learn it) would be great for either platform. looks like it can do the 3D modeling, and create the Gcode too (presumably seamlessly) in the same application. My newbie self imagines that can have some benefits.

[Robbob]

Having both and similar experience to drzoo2 Ill share my start to current.

I started with a 800$ machine that was DC motor and a table that could cut 9*11 sheets. Downloaded Mach3 and had learning curves with LazyCam. All my designing was done in Autocad that I got licensed using a student sign up.

Machine was good for its price and simple hobby stuff. DC motor has down sides as pointed out by another veteran cutter. I was burning up bits in the beginning and I went to Hulkster for some help. He helped me understand carbon fiber in the beginning. It doesnt like heat and with the DC motor only spinning about 8000rpm I was going to fast on my speeds. I was running 4.5ipm at max rpm and couldnt get much life out of the bit. He helped me find some happy medium that the little machine could handle.

Mach3 is needed for the Gcode and you can use it for free if your Gcode is less then 500 lines. Most of my stuff was back then but I bought the license anyway. Lazycam is free with Mach3 but terrible in my opinion, I got my hands on Cut2D and have been using it since. Cut2D is so user freindly its noob proof.

My goal was mostly hobby, make small parts for myself and who ever may have wanted them. Once I got a handle on things I decided to go for the business side. Make the hobby pay for itself was my theory.

Started designing crawler parts and taking on side projects. Thats when I knew I needed a bigger machine, I couldnt cut anything of size and buying small sheets just wasnt economical.

I started looking all over Ebay for the Chinese machines and going through Google to find pros and cons and reviews. Commercial name machine is gonna run ya about double what the Chinese does but you do have that local tech support should you need it. I went the chance route and found a completly aluminum frame machine with screw drives, not belts. Not saying belts are bad but I wanted to push the machine and felt belts would give me problems later so I played it safe.

Ebay is pretty much all the same machine models and they are indication of their size. I went with what they call a 6040 which means 600*400 table. It had a 115V brushless water cooled 65mm spindle (24000rpm) and control box with a 4th axis. It came with a pump that you submerge in a bucket and run the tubes up and to the spindle.

I Hate Water! No way was I running all this electricity around me and a bucket of water. I went with computer water cooling stuff. Got a dual 120mm fan radiator, a small pump, small reservoir and a normal 12v 15amp power supply. Mounted everything up and ran the hoses across and over to the machine and put a flow wheel inline so I can always see that waters moving. Its a sealed system and no spills.

Once I got that all up and running it was like night and day. I was cutting 16*24 size sheets and up to 5mm thick carbon fiber. Problems happened shortly after from noob mistake. Machine jammed and instead of hitting the Big Red E-Stop I hit the power switch to the control box. Problem is it takes a few seconds for the board to fully disharge and be off but Mach is still sending signals to it. Poof smoked the chinese board. Scramble run to google and found the board online. Read a bunch about that board and other boards that people were talking about. Found the most common one mentioned and ordered it up. It was then I also decided to switch the spindle from a 115v to a 220v and get a VFD for it. Still the same rpm (24000) but more torque and smoother running.

Ive had this machine going on 4 years now and all the problems Ive had I chalk up to learning and my mistakes. I havent had anything it couldnt handle yet and Ive gone through some good materials. From 1.50'' thick delrin, 5mm carbon fiber, 3mm G10 and into metals like 2mm 7075 and even .375 thick brass recently. Ive had great luck with the metals just from reading and asking some reliable sources, Ive bugged SMW (rob_b) so much lol.

So short end to the story .... The first machine (and it still works) was a cheap way to get my feet wet. The second machine you can find for around 1200-1300 on Ebay and can run from the unpacking stage. You will need a good computer And heres the kicker, watch what type of controller the machine has. Mine was a serial port and its a pin to find computers with them still on the boards. Most of the machines now are coming with USB hook ups which is nice. If you get a serial port hook up then just buy a good (like 100$ refurb from Amazon) computer and run XP. If you get one with a USB hook up then Win7 is fine. Youll want a dedicated computer either way. If you use one that youre surfing the net on or trying to multitask while the machines running then you risk the machine missing steps or locking up. you really just want to hit Start and be able to touch nothing on the computer until it stops.

In the end I would say Im into my currrent machine for about 3000$ over 3 years but very pleased with everything about it. Todays price I would put you at about 2-2400 to get to the point mine is now, prices have come down greatly. In my opinion a router table is something I think you go big on to start. The small one may fit the budget to start but once you start making key chains and see how addicting and easy it can be you'll wanna start making clocks and the small one will outgrow itself quick.

Now for printers lol ..... You can go cheap and upgrade or start with the 800$+ ones and have a good jump on machines. From there its a lot of reading and trial/error. Luckily a lot of the software needed to actually print is free so thats a plus.

Youll still need a design program but lot of people have good luck with Open Source, Tinkercad, Google Sketch and some others Im not familiar with. 3D printing actually made me learn 3D design and pushed me on with Autocad Inventor. Its scary at first but wow it really is as easy as adding or removing material.

Youll still need a good computer with upto date GPU/VideoCard. If you have an XP system hanging around then youll be fine with onboard graphics. If you hook up to a Win7/8/10 system then youll need a good video card. Nothing like gamer good just something like 50$ for an Nvidia with up to date specs.

Lot of reading and understanding in printing but its so great for prototyping parts or making something for my daughter. And the nice thing is if you ever wanted something your machine couldnt fit then theres always Shapeways. You can farm out print jobs a lot easier and cheaper then farming out machined parts.

The good part is (i feel) with printing you can usually tell early if the job is gonna be good or bad. If your initial layers stick then half the battle is won lol. After that its just watch to be sure the layers are smooth and equal going down, if they are then most of the time you can walk away. But if something gos wrong or it botches up half way through then really all you lost was time and about 13cents worth of material.

Miss a couple steps on the machine and its pretty much a scrap piece of material after that. Little bit difference in the pocket when you make a mistake.

Theres a good thread, im sure youve read it, in here already on printing and A Lot of good advice and help from others. Its helped me out a bit with some areas I wanted to improve in.



In my opinion - Figure out your true goal first, is it only hobby or could you see yourself making parts for others. Printing is more of the hands off type of thing in comparison to running a machine.

Its definately fun though looking at something and saying 'I made that'

[Jim85IROC]

Originally Posted by IPT

oh, and there are some great reviews of this 3D printer. Is this too "hobbiest"? Monoprice MP Select Mini 3D Printer V2, Black.

I have the Maker Select printer, not the mini. From what I understand, the Mini is very similar in quality. I'm quite happy with the Maker Select. I bought it knowing that I'd be doing some upgrades to it, but also knowing that it would be usable right out of the box, and it was. I was making prints right away. I haven't taken the time to get "perfect" prints out of the machine, but the prints I get are very strong, competent prints. For my use, that's all I wanted. I'm not printing tugboats and Pokémon figures that I'm going to put on display, I'm printing RC car parts.

One reason that I bought the Maker Select instead of the Mini was because I thought I needed a big print bed, in order to print big things. The reality is, most big stuff takes so god awfully long to print, that it just isn't practical in most cases. The last significant print that I made was the bulkhead for my Clone Hammers, and a draft-quality print would take 6-8 hours to print. Every time I made a print and found yet another issue that I had to correct, it was another day before I had it to try out. My final high quality print took close to 14 hours. I think that overall, a 3D printer is really more useful for smaller prints that are easy to perform a rapid prototyping type of sequence on.

[IPT]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Having both and similar experience to drzoo2 Ill share my start to current.

Thanks for chiming in Rob. I'll have more questions I'm sure, but for now, which 3D printer thread are you talking about? Just want to make sure I read the one you mentioned.

Also, out of curiosity, what sort of models for the CNC would you recommend in preset time? I've decided to go in a good 3D printer (probably the Prusa MK3) first, but the CNC rattles around in my head. I'm curious what you'd look at today as an entry get the feet wet version, but also a go all in one.

I'm thinking the Prusa has great community, support, and gets great reviews. Building it will also help me "know it". Seems to me some of the modeling for 3d printing will help if and when I delve into the CNC too.

[IPT]

Originally Posted by Jim85IROC

One reason that I bought the Maker Select instead of the Mini was because I thought I needed a big print bed, in order to print big things. The reality is, most big stuff takes so god awfully long to print, that it just isn't practical in most cases. The last significant print that I made was the bulkhead for my Clone Hammers, and a draft-quality print would take 6-8 hours to print. Every time I made a print and found yet another issue that I had to correct, it was another day before I had it to try out. My final high quality print took close to 14 hours. I think that overall, a 3D printer is really more useful for smaller prints that are easy to perform a rapid prototyping type of sequence on.

Good to know. I'll probably go with the Prusa (for all the reasons I mentioned). It may be a little more than I need (in fact I'm sure it will be) but if I ever want it I'll have it. Who knows what the wife and some day my daughter might end up wanting to use it for! I can see jewelry boxes, vases, and toys being made already .

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by IPT

Thanks for chiming in Rob. I'll have more questions I'm sure, but for now, which 3D printer thread are you talking about? Just want to make sure I read the one you mentioned.

Also, out of curiosity, what sort of models for the CNC would you recommend in preset time? I've decided to go in a good 3D printer (probably the Prusa MK3) first, but the CNC rattles around in my head. I'm curious what you'd look at today as an entry get the feet wet version, but also a go all in one.

I'm thinking the Prusa has great community, support, and gets great reviews. Building it will also help me "know it". Seems to me some of the modeling for 3d printing will help if and when I delve into the CNC too.

Lot of chatter in this thread
3d printer for rc parts

And if you go the Prusa route then some good info here and he has had some good advice/info in the other thread too.
Next 3D Printing Adventure

If I had to look at the router stuff these days Id probably go the same route with the 6040 model. I would have planned ahead a bit more but have gone the same route.

[IPT]

Thanks for the input. As an aside I did find where you can get the Fusion 360 for free if you are a hobbiest or very small business. Looks like it's time to start learning.

Looks to me like if I can learn Fusion 360 it will be more streamlined than using 2-3 different programs. Is that an accurate perception? I do see myself doing CNC some day and I would think having the CAM integrated could save some time (and certainly avoid any translation or compatibility issues). is that right, or am i misunderstanding the workflow?

[Ditchrat]

Originally Posted by IPT

Thanks for the input. As an aside I did find where you can get the Fusion 360 for free if you are a hobbiest or very small business. Looks like it's time to start learning.

Looks to me like if I can learn Fusion 360 it will be more streamlined than using 2-3 different programs. Is that an accurate perception? I do see myself doing CNC some day and I would think having the CAM integrated could save some time (and certainly avoid any translation or compatibility issues). is that right, or am i misunderstanding the workflow?

I design in fusion 360 and its a fing monster. By that I mean learning it is like strapping a steak to your ars and hopping into a lion pen in the zoo. It will be a very spectacular ars reaming.


I am no means a expert or even mildly proficient at fusion. I can do basics and am learning more every day. It has a great online community and is very learn-able.


Biggest thing I can advise you on is; the order of operations is very important when designing in Fusion. You must think about what you want to do and when to do it.


Once you learn those basics there are features that let you work backwards and make changes.


the other thing is if you are making a symmetrical object, make one half of it and mirror it across a plane.

[IPT]

Originally Posted by Ditchrat

I design in fusion 360 and its a fing monster. By that I mean learning it is like strapping a steak to your ars and hopping into a lion pen in the zoo. It will be a very spectacular ars reaming.


I am no means a expert or even mildly proficient at fusion. I can do basics and am learning more every day. It has a great online community and is very learn-able.


Biggest thing I can advise you on is; the order of operations is very important when designing in Fusion. You must think about what you want to do and when to do it.


Once you learn those basics there are features that let you work backwards and make changes.


the other thing is if you are making a symmetrical object, make one half of it and mirror it across a plane.

Thanks for the input, always helpful from someone already ahead on the road. Mirroring is something I remember doing with vector design in Illustrator. Good to know to do it here.

Yeah, seems all of my hobbies involve complex software these days! Guess it's good and bad. Sure does take time though to learn it. I just don't want to invest time in an easier to use software only yo find that down the road it won't get me where I need to be (and then have to learn the more robust one anyway!).

Appreciate the input, and yes I have seen that they have a ton of tutorials. Looking forward to delving in.

[Ditchrat]

I dont know what you think you will neex in the future, but fusion seems to be very robust. At least that is what I am seeing in the videos.


Im looking forward to learning to design moving parts and parts that interact. But im a long way off.


I have a rotating spotlight in mind.

[MAC FAB]

A buddy of mine is building his own 2 head printer, 36"x24" with a ~18" Z axis with huge stepper motors. Hopefully it will be up and running before too long. Do note that the router setup is noisy as hell when machining metal. Then the tooling that will dig as deep as you'd like needs to be stout and again the Z axis on the router allowing for sufficient plunge. As for software, he likes TurboCad 3d for his stuff, said it was easy to learn. I'm trying...... old dog doesn't comprehend too quickly I guess!! Something else perhaps to consider is those little Harbor Freight lathes. Guys are putting CNC controlls on them to make hobby stuff. And to think a guy wanted to give me on and I said no. Stupid old dog......

[JohnRobHolmes]

3d printing will be quickest and easiest to get up to speed, and it will prepare you for machining in some ways. Learning machining first will unlock much more potential of fabrication, and make 3d printing back burner learning in most ways.


I got into manual and CNC machining first because the technology was cheaper than printers of the time. These days I would get the first machine that could output what I wanted to make.

[Jim85IROC]

Another thing to consider is part strength. Consumer grade 3D printers are going to be fantastic for non-structural parts, or parts that you have room to make massive enough to get the strength you need. For something like suspension arms where you can only make something so large, a CNC will be more useful. For smaller widgets like receiver boxes or body mounts, the 3D printer will be faster and cheaper.

[IPT]

You all have provided some fantastic information, insight, and input - thank you. It's been very helpful.

I currently have a Prusa MK3 3D printer kit sitting by my desk. Now I need to find some time to build it. I also signed up for and started the tutorials for Fusion 360. Not far into it, but I can see how it can be the only thing I would ever need (and then some maybe). I can also see how it might be overkill and maybe a bit complex to jump into the game with. I will give it a go for a while and see how I fare.

I think for long term and hobby stuff I am more into the creative stuff like custom painting, graphics, and stuff of that nature. I think because of that the CNC will be more usable (to cut stuff out to be painted, or maybe even create carved out graphics). That said, there is only so much time in the day. For now the printer will get me going with stuff I can do now (need some brackets to mount a controller on my fish tank, wife needs inserts for a Jewelry box, etc). It will also allow me to learn the 3d modeling and programs. Learning with the 360 should make the foray into CAM a bit smoother too. Also, while I learn all of this stuff my bank account can replenish .

[yjdavid]

Check out Lars Christensen and nyccnc on youtube for good Fusion videos. Modeling in Fusion is dead simple in my opinion, if you've used any other 2D drawing software it's just like that, but you can then apply those drawings (sketches in Fusion) in any plane.