Sidehilling, or the lack of....

[cgw]

So, I've noticed that despite what setup I try, this thing just wont sidehill like some of the other rigs I've used and some that I trail with. I'm using the metal battery plate with all electronics mounted up front and as low as possible. I have no roof rack, interior, or anything else adding weight up high, and my body is mounted as low as it gets with the fenders trimmed for clearance. Ive tried a few tire/foam combos, best so far is the 1.9 Growlers with CI lil nova dual stage foams, closed cell inner with soft outer front and medium outer rear. I dont currently have any wheel weights installed front or rear. My ride height is also not bottomed full droop, but not lifted to the max either, approx at the 50% travel height.

I've tried many different setups with the suspension, both stock and combinations of aftermarket. I also have the Dinky canti kit for it as well (currently installed). My front suspension is all stock links, but with the shocks outboarded and the axle end of the lower links spread out to where the factory shock position was.
Rear lower links are all stock length, I also have the GCM truss on hand, as well as the RULRs.

Forward climb angle is greatly improved with the addition of the RULRs and shortened rear upper links to increase anti squat, with no change in sidehilling.
The issue, is it seems that either:
1. the roll center is still way too low below the center of gravity
2. Ive noticed when driving one front tire up and obstacle, the rear suspension also lifts the tire on the same side instead of articulating thus making the whole truck lean instead of actively using its suspension.
3. A combination of both of those factors.

Short of raising the axle side mount for the panhard bar up approx 3/8" to the point that the panhard is almost toughing the framerail when the suspension is fully compressed, I'm not seeing a realistic way to raise the roll center up. If the roll center is raised that way, you could mount the tie rod to the tops out the steering knuckles to bring the drag link angle back into line with the panhard and get a easy high steer mod at the same time.

OK, so who has similar or different observations, fixes, or ideas?

[stillsmokin875]

Yea, sidehilling is pretty much non-existent with my rig too. I've tried multiple tire/foam combo's as well, and sounds like our setups are very similar, even down to the cantilever rear suspension. Like you said the roll center is low and there's not much you can do to alter it without compromising somewhere else. Experiment with the panhard location like you mentioned and see what results it gives you, couldn't hurt to try.

[Alexander_0_1]

I would try a heavier outer CI foam in the front.

My growlers are set up with lil novas too, but I have medium outer in the front and firm outers on the rear, for less tire roll.

As for my rock beasteses I also use lil novas, but they are medium outers all the way around, also for less roll.

If your comparing an ascender to an scx for sidehilling, its not the same, an ascender is heavier out of the box that an scx, so naturally its slightly tougher to defy gravity.

I too use a combination of GCM truss, and RLRTs, what type of shocks are you using?

Personally I don't like my shocks to lay down if the whatever they are on isn't going fast, I think the dinky rear cantilever suspension is just to save space for more interior options, or to fit a shorter body onto an scx. I think it hampers articulation of the suspension on rocks, but makes for a sweet street set up.

[Natedog]

Originally Posted by cgw

So, I've noticed that despite what setup I try, this thing just wont sidehill like some of the other rigs I've used and some that I trail with. I'm using the metal battery plate with all electronics mounted up front and as low as possible. I have no roof rack, interior, or anything else adding weight up high, and my body is mounted as low as it gets with the fenders trimmed for clearance. Ive tried a few tire/foam combos, best so far is the 1.9 Growlers with CI lil nova dual stage foams, closed cell inner with soft outer front and medium outer rear. I dont currently have any wheel weights installed front or rear. My ride height is also not bottomed full droop, but not lifted to the max either, approx at the 50% travel height.

I've tried many different setups with the suspension, both stock and combinations of aftermarket. I also have the Dinky canti kit for it as well (currently installed). My front suspension is all stock links, but with the shocks outboarded and the axle end of the lower links spread out to where the factory shock position was.
Rear lower links are all stock length, I also have the GCM truss on hand, as well as the RULRs.

Forward climb angle is greatly improved with the addition of the RULRs and shortened rear upper links to increase anti squat, with no change in sidehilling.
The issue, is it seems that either:
1. the roll center is still way too low below the center of gravity
2. Ive noticed when driving one front tire up and obstacle, the rear suspension also lifts the tire on the same side instead of articulating thus making the whole truck lean instead of actively using its suspension.
3. A combination of both of those factors.

Short of raising the axle side mount for the panhard bar up approx 3/8" to the point that the panhard is almost toughing the framerail when the suspension is fully compressed, I'm not seeing a realistic way to raise the roll center up. If the roll center is raised that way, you could mount the tie rod to the tops out the steering knuckles to bring the drag link angle back into line with the panhard and get a easy high steer mod at the same time.

OK, so who has similar or different observations, fixes, or ideas?

Good methodical tuning and trouble shooting. What wheels are you using during all this tuning and how much do they weigh? What battery and how much does it weigh?

Originally Posted by stillsmokin875

Yea, sidehilling is pretty much non-existent with my rig too. I've tried multiple tire/foam combo's as well, and sounds like our setups are very similar, even down to the cantilever rear suspension. Like you said the roll center is low and there's not much you can do to alter it without compromising somewhere else. Experiment with the panhard location like you mentioned and see what results it gives you, couldn't hurt to try.

Yes, both of you please experiment with panhard bar and roll center and update this thread.

Originally Posted by Alexander_0_1

I would try a heavier outer CI foam in the front.

My growlers are set up with lil novas too, but I have medium outer in the front and firm outers on the rear, for less tire roll.

As for my rock beasteses I also use lil novas, but they are medium outers all the way around, also for less roll.

If your comparing an ascender to an scx for sidehilling, its not the same, an ascender is heavier out of the box that an scx, so naturally its slightly tougher to defy gravity.

I too use a combination of GCM truss, and RLRTs, what type of shocks are you using?

Personally I don't like my shocks to lay down if the whatever they are on isn't going fast, I think the dinky rear cantilever suspension is just to save space for more interior options, or to fit a shorter body onto an scx. I think it hampers articulation of the suspension on rocks, but makes for a sweet street set up.

From my CI foam and tire tuning experience I agree with your foam findings, need to go little stiffer than the ideal climbing foam to maintain the sidehilling. Foams will and do soften with time and use, I've had to go stiffer on the oouter foams after couple months of hard use to maintain same sidehilling ability.

Part of the sidehill performance seems to be from a large tall body, overly damped shocks. I"m using 2s hardcase shorty packs mostly in this and the extra weight of them over my 1300mah 3s and 2200mah 3s packs definitely helps too.

I have not tried the laydown shock setup.

[Alexander_0_1]

Oh, I'd like to take all the credit, but all I did was call Crawler Innovations, and talk to the man himself, really nice guy.

[cgw]

OK, I'll add a few more details in that I spaced on before.

The foams I'm running now weren't the stiffest I've used, I've even done the ultra hard stadium truck foams in it just to rule out it being the foams causing the tires to roll under. Currently mounted wheels are 8 hole beadlocks with no added weight .

I've tried various battery sizes and weights including 2s hardcase Onyx 5000mah, 3s 1600mah shorty flight packs from a heli, 3s 800mah airsoft gun packs that weigh about as much as a pack of smokes, and 3s 2200mah fixed wing flight packs. I have NOT yet tried running batteries mounted on the skids.

Current front shocks are the stockers, with stock springs and the adjuster run down to the halfway point on the threads. Various weights of oils have been used, as well as no oil.
Rears are currently the Dinky cantilever kit with the stock Traxxas shocks/springs that come on them. The pushrod lengths are set to put the shock midway through its stroke on the canti's with my rear ride height level with the front at ready to drive weight.

When I installed the canti kit, with NO other changes to the truck at all, the amount of torque twist displayed dropped out significantly. There is very little dip to the drivers side rear of the truck now, whereas before installing them, it looked like a pro street car lanching at the strip due to how badly it would tuck that rear and lift the front passenger side tire off the ground.

I've used just the RULRs in the rear combined with experimenting with rear upper link lengths (and stock length) to fix the driveline angle, as well as just the GCM truss with various link lengths. I have also used the stock sliders mounted on opposite sides to use the battery box pivot as a "free" RULR.
I have an angle board that I set up at home that is a 2' wide by 6' long piece of plywood sheet with toolbox/drawer liner glued to it. Standing up on end I use to for vertical climb angle testing, and layed down longways I use it for sidehill angle testing, and I've done all my tests back to back with and without the body, and the results without the body are surprisingly close as far is its abilities.

The times when the whole rig leans downhill and rolls are understandable, but no matter what I've tried it still loves to lift the uphill rear tire when sidehilling, which pulls the truck the rest of the way over.

Testing on a standard height sidewalk curb driving the truck at it from a 45* angle, the truck will start walking the front tire up onto the curb, then as it gets higher but not yet near the limit of the front's articulation, the truck starts lifting the rear wheel of the same side, acting like the rear suspension is either too stiff (its definitely not), or possibly the front is too soft (also highly doubtful). I have tried various internal springs front and rear, as well as setting it up sprung, droop, and semi droop. I have NOT yet tried running it as stiff as stocks shocks/springs allow, and using limiting straps to hold the ride height down, nor have I tried as stiff as it goes then bringing the height down via taller shock towers or the add on lift/lowering brackets like people use on SCX's.

I know this rig has what it takes to shine, we all just need to work together to iron out any little kinks in it. My first time comping it the only aftermarket parts was a servo winch, a few scale items, and the 1.9 swamper XLs, and I placed 4th out of a field of drivers with far more experience overall, driving well set up SCX's, on a course and terrain I'd never been on before.

[Natedog]

Originally Posted by cgw

OK, I'll add a few more details in that I spaced on before.

The foams I'm running now weren't the stiffest I've used, I've even done the ultra hard stadium truck foams in it just to rule out it being the foams causing the tires to roll under. Currently mounted wheels are 8 hole beadlocks with no added weight .

I've tried various battery sizes and weights including 2s hardcase Onyx 5000mah, 3s 1600mah shorty flight packs from a heli, 3s 800mah airsoft gun packs that weigh about as much as a pack of smokes, and 3s 2200mah fixed wing flight packs. I have NOT yet tried running batteries mounted on the skids.

Current front shocks are the stockers, with stock springs and the adjuster run down to the halfway point on the threads. Various weights of oils have been used, as well as no oil.
Rears are currently the Dinky cantilever kit with the stock Traxxas shocks/springs that come on them. The pushrod lengths are set to put the shock midway through its stroke on the canti's with my rear ride height level with the front at ready to drive weight.

When I installed the canti kit, with NO other changes to the truck at all, the amount of torque twist displayed dropped out significantly. There is very little dip to the drivers side rear of the truck now, whereas before installing them, it looked like a pro street car lanching at the strip due to how badly it would tuck that rear and lift the front passenger side tire off the ground.

I've used just the RULRs in the rear combined with experimenting with rear upper link lengths (and stock length) to fix the driveline angle, as well as just the GCM truss with various link lengths. I have also used the stock sliders mounted on opposite sides to use the battery box pivot as a "free" RULR.
I have an angle board that I set up at home that is a 2' wide by 6' long piece of plywood sheet with toolbox/drawer liner glued to it. Standing up on end I use to for vertical climb angle testing, and layed down longways I use it for sidehill angle testing, and I've done all my tests back to back with and without the body, and the results without the body are surprisingly close as far is its abilities.

The times when the whole rig leans downhill and rolls are understandable, but no matter what I've tried it still loves to lift the uphill rear tire when sidehilling, which pulls the truck the rest of the way over.

Testing on a standard height sidewalk curb driving the truck at it from a 45* angle, the truck will start walking the front tire up onto the curb, then as it gets higher but not yet near the limit of the front's articulation, the truck starts lifting the rear wheel of the same side, acting like the rear suspension is either too stiff (its definitely not), or possibly the front is too soft (also highly doubtful). I have tried various internal springs front and rear, as well as setting it up sprung, droop, and semi droop. I have NOT yet tried running it as stiff as stocks shocks/springs allow, and using limiting straps to hold the ride height down, nor have I tried as stiff as it goes then bringing the height down via taller shock towers or the add on lift/lowering brackets like people use on SCX's.

I know this rig has what it takes to shine, we all just need to work together to iron out any little kinks in it. My first time comping it the only aftermarket parts was a servo winch, a few scale items, and the 1.9 swamper XLs, and I placed 4th out of a field of drivers with far more experience overall, driving well set up SCX's, on a course and terrain I'd never been on before.

Thanks for the details. In my experience the 2S 4500mah (or so) shorty pack on stock battery tray helps. Any other method of battery mounting is not as good for sidehill.

Interesting that the without body didn't make much difference, do you have an angle protractor to use to accurately measure the sidehill angles and the angle of the chassis (measure on rear frame crossmember or top of body) the angles at which it rolls over? Some pics of your truck would help us to help you, I agree this truck has what it takes and the design and build quality are great, that's why I'm such a fan.

Assuming you mean Axial 8-hole beadlocks which are a very lightweight wheel, something around 75g per wheel is good weight wheel for 1.9 scaler. SSD beadlocks, RC4WD steel, HR steel, etc are are great wheels for this and cost less than some others. You can always wrap a little lead fishing weight wire around the Axial or other light plastic wheels to get up to about 75g. 3/16" or 1/4" lead fishing weight wire works well and when I weighted those wheels, I put a wrap of tape around to hold the lead in place. LockedUpRC makes nice aluminum beadlocks in similar weight range, forget how much VP wheels weigh. I'm still running stock plastic Ascender wheels, tires and foams, going to buy another set of same tires/foams to test on some other steel beadlocks (SSD and HR). Have you measured the stock wheels and the 8-holes from the hex mounting area on backside of wheel to the backside outer edge of wheel (backspacing) to see if they are same? I have some 1.9 8-holes that I'll measure and then my stock RTR Ascender wheels.

Shocks I adjusted so that with weight off the wheels (suspension hanging free) the spring preload adjusters just touch the springs which results in about 50/50 up/down travel and sounds like it's sitting lower than yours. Pic of yours on level ground at ride height? I'm not sure about the cantilever rear setup you're running, might allow the rear uphill wheel to lift easier. Too much suspension travel is bad, as is too little travel. Stock shocks seem really in the ballpark on travel, but damping too stiff imo. I like to setup my crawlers so that the front flexes easier and same or little more travel than the rears, helps keep it stable on climbs and sidehill. Torque twist has not harmed my climbing much, more of a problem descending for me, but that is also due to RTR ESC is not as fine control as my Tekin FXR. Stock springs seem about right on the main and secondary spring, they are very close for the stock weight of the truck, might go slightly softer on the short springs, is there a Vaterra spring rate option for these shocks? I need to check on this too. Practicing smooth on and off throttle control really helps with this truck too. Limiting straps or internal shock travel limiters may be needed with the cantilever setup.

I will watch my truck closely again as I don't recall exactly what wheel lifts first when it does tip on sidehill.

[cgw]

Yep, its the axial 8 hole beadlocks that are mounted. Sorry, I kinda spaced that, waaaaay too much caffeine and working seems to do that to me sometimes. I'll be away from my rig the next few days, but I'd like to work out a few possible fixes we can all experiment with. To be honest, I really don't mind the torque twist either, I do however want to stay away from the squat it has when climbing inclines. Stock I couldn't go past a 50* angle without it wanting to roll over backwards, now roughly 60* is doable with the combo of RULRs, GCM truss, and different length rear upper links.
I'm not sure of the backspace on the axial beadlocks, nor of the stock wheels, but it looks to be pretty close judging by fender clearance.
If anyone has their truck handy and I'm away from mine for a bit, give it a shot measuring it and running it through a 3 and 4 link calculator stock and with various changes made and post up the results.

We're getting damn close with these things, just a little work left to go!

[EeePee]

Testing on a standard height sidewalk curb driving the truck at it from a 45* angle, the truck will start walking the front tire up onto the curb, then as it gets higher but not yet near the limit of the front's articulation, the truck starts lifting the rear wheel of the same side, acting like the rear suspension is either too stiff (its definitely not), or possibly the front is too soft (also highly doubtful)

Uh, they're too stiff. Or something is binding. Take off the springs and see.

(See how easy it is to not quote the entire post, Natedog?)

[Alexander_0_1]

I'd say you've reached the full amount of flex your gonna get from using 1/16 revo shocks. The dinky kit almost works well as a sway bar, except it has coilovers that make it soft which is bad.

I'd go with a longer shock, and an actual sway bar, like one from Erik_D_lux, or maybe the anti-rock from VP, technically it's for the yeti, but that's never stopped anyone on RCC before.

[cgw]

EeePee, its definitely not too stiff, it acts the same way regardless of springs that are on it, the preload, the ride height, etc. Nothing is binding up either. With shocks removed everything moves and articulates with no perceptible drag or friction.

Alexander, due to the way the canti setup is, very very little articulation is lost over the stock rear shock setup. It's pretty equal to downsizing to 100mm shocks in the amount of articulation it has with this installed. I don't care about lost articulation as long as what's left is usable, and even out of the box I feel most of these trucks are a bit too flexy

[EeePee]

If the shocks aren't moving their full stroke, the springs are too stiff. Could be you built the shocks too full of oil and they don't do the whole stroke I suppose, but you said no oil either, as bad as an idea that is.

It's as easy as driving without the body on and looking at the shocks to see if they're using their full stroke or not.

[cgw]

The shocks compress fine in all situations except that one. The oil was removed for testing to rule out the shocks being overly dampened. I can remove the springs completely and let it sit all the way down and it still acts like that under that one situation.

[Natedog]

Last night I measured some Axial 1.9 8-hole beadlocks, didn't measure Ascender wheels yet.

Axial 8-hole 1.9 wheels
Width = 1.5" (outside of rim to outside of rim)
Backspace = 0.510"

EDIT: Stock Ascender wheels are very close to the same.

[cgw]

So, I'm thinking when I get back home I'm going to go back to running just the GCM truss and remove the link risers, that seemed to actually make the biggest difference for me in the angle the truck could reach on steep vertical climbs, which is common where we comp. I'll have to check the angle that it lifts and rolls on side hills, but I know the max vertical angle I've hit without weighting the wheels was 61 degrees which make it just about perfect in that aspect for here.
Before I add any weight to the truck however, I m going to figure out a raised mount for the axle side of the panhard bar to raise the roll center a bit. Ive actually tossed around the idea of stretching the wheelbase a but front and rear like on my 1:1 K5 to help approach and departure a bit.
Out of those of you who have tried the various parts like the link risers and truss, what has given you the best performance and in what situations?

[cgw]

One more thing I was thinking about while not sleeping at night is a front suck down winch. I have one on my 1:1 K5 crawler for steep climbs and it does the job well. I just walk to front end onto a bigger obstacle, then drop the front ride height down to just off the bump stops and it climbs like a mountain goat without the tendency to try to lift the front. I have overly high expectations with my ascender, I love having it set up as a class 1 rig, that I can drop class 2 tires on and be competitive in class 2 and also in class 3 against wraiths and tubers. Nothing will piss off a $1k+ wraith owner like getting beaten by a c1 rig with c2 tires

I should be home this weekend and will try out a few ideas and see what I can do with that panhard bar to raise it up on the axle side, and post up what comes of it

[cgw]

Ok, did a little work over the weekend. Temporarily made a panhard from revo ends and allthread and ran it from the stock chassis side mount to the top pivot bolt on the top of the passenger side steering knuckle. Moved the tie rod from under the steering arms to the top so that it also raised up the draglink to match the new panhard angle. It did effectively raise the roll center up and helped out sidehilling a decent amount, and a little more when used in conjunction with both the RULRs and the truss. Only issue was a small amount of bump steer from the panhard being so much longer than the drag link.
If we were to make a new longer draglink for full "crossover" type steering, OR make a new bracket for the axle side of the panhard that bolts onto the factory location and raises the new attachment point up about a half inch it should be dead on.
Ok guys, try out/improve on what I've found out and lets see what we can accomplish.

[MudMonster]

Can we get some pictures?

[cgw]

I'm back at work now, but I'll get a few pics up next time I'm at home. Also, as much as I want to keep this thing Vaterra just to prove a point to the other brand nutswingers, I do have an axle swap planned. I narrowed and centered an AR60 for the rear, and narrowed and flipped one for the front with passenger side drop. I measured to make custom truss for the front that will have an extended height panhard mount that should keep the panhard rod completely flat at normal ride height. Should look just like my 1 ton swapped K5 I use to run back in Arizona after a little filler and shaping to make the rear AR60 look like a 14bff. Widths on the axles I built are stock SCX axle width on the rear I centered, and 5mm wider up front just to be correct

[Natedog]

I love the Ascender axles, but look forward to seeing what you've got going with your narrowed AR60s and panhard mods.