Easy To See Why The New RTR's Are So Cheap

[Browneye]

Kind of a rant on Vaterra. I'm not holding my breath for a quality rig out of them any longer. I see their demise in today's crawler world. I guess we'll see.

My crawling buddy got a new Suburban for Christmas and we went over it for a maiden run. Geez, plastic links, the same chrome wheels without the chrome now, cheaper smaller tires, no bumpers or sliders, plain plain plain.

So I'm looking over the drivetrain and the rear driveshaft at the pinion has the pin sticking out, ready to fall out. WTF? I thought that would be an easy fix, they just didn't pay attention when they cinched up the output shaft pinion screw. They just tightened up the screw with the pin sticking out, full on hard against the bearing race.

Now the fun begins...
Hex pins are so tight I'm afraid I'll either break the pin or my driver. Okay, can pull the axles whole, but the pinion screw is so tight same thing - either break it or the wrench. Ended up stripping the screw out with an allen wrench - still won't come loose.

So I put it back together, drove the pin down and back into the cup, and put a piece of wire around the cup to hold the pin in place so he can at least run the truck for a trail walk.

Next day...let's dig into this again, I have a spare rig for parts. LHS doesn't have the input assembly in stock. Okay, we'll use one of mine and drill out the screw. Will they order one and warranty it? Nope, "You have to contact Horizon directly for any warranty claims." I felt bad charging him $20 to order in a replacement input assembly to replace the one I put in his brand new rig.

It's a good thing I trial fit the pinion onto a spare input shaft stub CUZ IT WON'T FIT ALL THE WAY ON!! Some kind of machining slag or casting or something inside the square hole. I was able to clear it out with an exacto. So now we know why they knackered the screw and never did get it all the way together. How did this get out of QC??

Put it all back together right, now it runs fine.

Why did they mount the servo sideways on WB4 for this? And the RULR is fine, but everything is plastic. Good thing it's vaterra plastic huh? Servo shaft is sloppy - I mean REALLY sloppy - without ANY time on it.

I'm just not impressed. At all. Oh well.

Rant off...hope y'all have a very Happy New Year!!!

[Itali83]

Bummer. I’m no expert in this field but have and can see the writing on the wall. I love mine and am glad I got itwhen I did but am sad that I think in another year or so they’ll just be bottom barrel hobby grade truck.

Ben

[soze]

I guess I should keep the ones I have. Was planning to sell one of them.

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[BuffaloCrawler]

My LHS had one Bronco Ascender left in stock......I've been thinking of getting an Ascender for awhile and almost bought the Suburban until i did some research and realized they are discontinuing the original ones for the newer cheaper models. Scooped up that Bronco since I'm assuming I won't see any NIB anymore. Glad I did

[Browneye]

Yep...get 'em while ya can.

And yes, I'm sure a complete noob without help would take his rig back to the store and they would just look at him with the deer-in-the-headlights stare and shake their head. No wonder people get into this and then give up in frustration.

As most of you know I got started with a K10 RTR and loved it so much built two more from kits over the past year and a half. Really enjoyed the platform. Mine have beef-tube axles, weighted alloy wheels, an upgraded ESC and servo, and custom bodies and bumpers. This section of the forum has been a huge help in how and what to do to make them really crawl well.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend any of the original rigs - a K10 or Bronco is all that is left. I don't recall if they put the original alloy links in the F100 - I know they left off the bumpers and sliders. I'm also not a fan of the cheap radios that come with a RTR. My Spectrum 5-ch is just SO much nicer. And you can put 5 rigs on it in memory, so you buy it once for several trucks. They switched out the nice spektrum for a no-name cheapo on the Suburban too. Not impressed.

When the new Axial Blazer came out I decided to get one cuz I'm such a big Chevy truck fan. I've owned every brand of truck but like the Chevys the best. The Axial platform is not nearly as sturdy compared to an Ascender. Axles, frame, shocks, pretty much everything. But they sure do crawl nice.

My buddies have TRX-4's, SCX10ii's, and Ascenders, so we have a good mix in comparison. They're all more similar than different, but the Axial is the most versatile and easy to customize. I hate to say it, but I'm leaning that way for future builds. The Vanquish Origin has my attention, but SOOO much upfront $$. Personally I don't think you should have to spend a grand to get a decent quality and performing crawler. The new Redcat has also caught my eye...we'll see how that pans out. Maybe I need to look closer at a TRX. [shrug]

If Horizon doesn't kick this platform up a notch they're going to become completely insignificant on the crawler scene. And discontinuing all the parts is simply foretelling the future. Really bums me out.

[HumboldtEF]

The one thing I've seen that makes me hopeful is that the new Ascender RTR's are being called the Ascender-S, I know its not much but I'm hoping it hints at more to come from this S platform (hopefully improved and in kit form)

[Shinchu]

the way i see it, ascenders are sort of the swiss army knife of the hobby.
you can be a newb, veteran, or anything in between and these are great.
sure if you are a newb it might be a steep learning curve with problems like browneye is encountering on the new 'burb RTR but hopefully they have somewhere to ask for help. (like here for example)

but for anyone with experience, we have the arftermarket support, and the fabrication potential to make these things awesome.
who else makes an adjustable wheelbase chassis with this much support??
we have guys fabbing up ascenders with full leaf springs, scale drivetrains... its really a great versatile platform and im glad i chose it to get into scale rigs.

LONG LIVE THE ASCENDER

[JatoTheRipper]

I thought everybody knew the Suburban was a mostly plastic mess. Horizon seems to have dumbed the Ascender down to SCX10 levels.

[Browneye]

Originally Posted by JatoTheRipper

I thought everybody knew the Suburban was a mostly plastic mess. Horizon seems to have dumbed the Ascender down to SCX10 levels.

That's the way I see it. And no, I had not looked close at one.

I did ask my LHS about the Deadbolt, and they said I didn't want it - was definitely a plastic mess. LOL



And now I see the RBK is backordered 'till April. What a hot mess.


I'm glad I'm not in a hurry to get something going - I have enough going on with the rigs I have. Two of them are really capable and just trade off on comps and runs. And my new Bomber.



Maybe I'll build my scale vintage travel trailer. And a scale building. For PBTF.

[JatoTheRipper]

Originally Posted by Browneye

That's the way I see it. And no, I had not looked close at one.

I did ask my LHS about the Deadbolt, and they said I didn't want it - was definitely a plastic mess. LOL



And now I see the RBK is backordered 'till April. What a hot mess.


I'm glad I'm not in a hurry to get something going - I have enough going on with the rigs I have. Two of them are really capable and just trade off on comps and runs. And my new Bomber.



Maybe I'll build my scale vintage travel trailer. And a scale building. For PBTF.

Sorry, you didn't know! The Suburban is seemingly Vaterra's version of the Deadbolt - aka a plastic salad. Ugh!

[soze]

Originally Posted by Browneye

That's the way I see it. And no, I had not looked close at one.

I did ask my LHS about the Deadbolt, and they said I didn't want it - was definitely a plastic mess. LOL



And now I see the RBK is backordered 'till April. What a hot mess.


I'm glad I'm not in a hurry to get something going - I have enough going on with the rigs I have. Two of them are really capable and just trade off on comps and runs. And my new Bomber.



Maybe I'll build my scale vintage travel trailer. And a scale building. For PBTF.

I wish Ultimate would carry some of the HRP distributed brands. Can't complain though, they've been in business for so long for a reason.

They're my go to for Tamiya stuff locally.

[Rich Trujillo]

Originally Posted by Browneye

Kind of a rant on Vaterra. I'm not holding my breath for a quality rig out of them any longer. I see their demise in today's crawler world. I guess we'll see.

My crawling buddy got a new Suburban for Christmas and we went over it for a maiden run. Geez, plastic links, the same chrome wheels without the chrome now, cheaper smaller tires, no bumpers or sliders, plain plain plain.

So I'm looking over the drivetrain and the rear driveshaft at the pinion has the pin sticking out, ready to fall out. WTF? I thought that would be an easy fix, they just didn't pay attention when they cinched up the output shaft pinion screw. They just tightened up the screw with the pin sticking out, full on hard against the bearing race.

Now the fun begins...
Hex pins are so tight I'm afraid I'll either break the pin or my driver. Okay, can pull the axles whole, but the pinion screw is so tight same thing - either break it or the wrench. Ended up stripping the screw out with an allen wrench - still won't come loose.

So I put it back together, drove the pin down and back into the cup, and put a piece of wire around the cup to hold the pin in place so he can at least run the truck for a trail walk.

Next day...let's dig into this again, I have a spare rig for parts. LHS doesn't have the input assembly in stock. Okay, we'll use one of mine and drill out the screw. Will they order one and warranty it? Nope, "You have to contact Horizon directly for any warranty claims." I felt bad charging him $20 to order in a replacement input assembly to replace the one I put in his brand new rig.

It's a good thing I trial fit the pinion onto a spare input shaft stub CUZ IT WON'T FIT ALL THE WAY ON!! Some kind of machining slag or casting or something inside the square hole. I was able to clear it out with an exacto. So now we know why they knackered the screw and never did get it all the way together. How did this get out of QC??

Put it all back together right, now it runs fine.

Why did they mount the servo sideways on WB4 for this? And the RULR is fine, but everything is plastic. Good thing it's vaterra plastic huh? Servo shaft is sloppy - I mean REALLY sloppy - without ANY time on it.

I'm just not impressed. At all. Oh well.

Rant off...hope y'all have a very Happy New Year!!!

Bummer to read about this issue. I checked into our customer service reports and it appears your buddy may have gotten that "one". Still makes for a bad experience and I get it but if you call our product support team they'll take care of it.
In regards to the materials, they are the same as always used in Vaterra and Losi products. The plastic links have a hardened steel shaft molded inside the links. Using these links helped reduce the costs of material and assembly of the suspension links while still being able to perform like the multi-piece links. These are not rubbery type links.

The servo was mounted this way since the K10 and F100 are assembled at the same factory. Since we do no have the floating battery tray, this help with production at the factory. You can change it around if desired but really won't make any performance difference.

The RULR mounts are injection molded of our same materials, machined parts would have increased the cost while not performing much better if at all than the injection molded parts.

All this being said, we wanted to produce a vehicle that would be competitively priced without being "cheap" like similar vehicles in the price point. Though it has molded links and molded gears its basically the same Ascender we've always had...shoot you still get the CV type shafts as opposed to a drive cut/pin drive you see on others in this price point.

Again, bummed that this one got through with these bad parts but I assure you our team will take care of your friend, give our product support team a call.

Rich

[Shinchu]

RBK's are out of stick until APRIL??!
well that made my next rig choice a bit easier lol (sorry fam its not going to be a 3rd ascender. not this time anyway)

Rich thanks for replying here. even with a seldom black eye these rigs are still great like you said better than others in this price range (i mean come on, we are getting ascenders at almost barrage prices!!!)

[elirgraves13]

If you look at the suburban you can tell its basically a deadbolt or the honcho. Entry level but with need for major upgrades hence the -100$ price tag. I assumed since the ascender has been out for years that a new one has to be on the "Horizon". They need to make a portal axle mod or something to keep up. Also why hasn't there been a comp based builders kit?

[Browneye]

Originally Posted by Rich Trujillo

Bummer to read about this issue. I checked into our customer service reports and it appears your buddy may have gotten that "one". Still makes for a bad experience and I get it but if you call our product support team they'll take care of it.
In regards to the materials, they are the same as always used in Vaterra and Losi products. The plastic links have a hardened steel shaft molded inside the links. Using these links helped reduce the costs of material and assembly of the suspension links while still being able to perform like the multi-piece links. These are not rubbery type links.

The servo was mounted this way since the K10 and F100 are assembled at the same factory. Since we do no have the floating battery tray, this help with production at the factory. You can change it around if desired but really won't make any performance difference.

The RULR mounts are injection molded of our same materials, machined parts would have increased the cost while not performing much better if at all than the injection molded parts.

All this being said, we wanted to produce a vehicle that would be competitively priced without being "cheap" like similar vehicles in the price point. Though it has molded links and molded gears its basically the same Ascender we've always had...shoot you still get the CV type shafts as opposed to a drive cut/pin drive you see on others in this price point.

Again, bummed that this one got through with these bad parts but I assure you our team will take care of your friend, give our product support team a call.

Rich

Thanks Rich,
Appreciate the feedback. It speaks well for Horizon. Now if we could just get them to produce some new product!!


I already fixed my buddy's rig - gave him the input shaft out of one of mine, and ordered a replacement from RPP - got it yesterday. I have the defective one with the drilled out pinion screw, so I'll see if I can get proof of purchase from him and submit to Horizon for a warranty claim. I know - if they do anything they'll send us another part which we've already covered. Maybe I can have an extra on hand then, give him his $20 back.



I also did not realize there were metal rods in those links, so that's certainly better than all plastic links like the other brand.
And yes, same great axles and chassis, shocks, etc.



Good info on the servo setup. It's still a really crappy servo. LOL



My perception is that us consumers have been spoiled by the quality of past product and the new stuff, while we understand it has to compete with the other brands, is not nearly the same. But it's a whole lot less money too, so we get it.



Can you tell us about parts availability? And why so many are being taken off your website? Are we going to be able to keep our rigs running over the long term? It's going to make a difference to your fan base.

[Rich Trujillo]

Originally Posted by Browneye

Thanks Rich,
Appreciate the feedback. It speaks well for Horizon. Now if we could just get them to produce some new product!!


I already fixed my buddy's rig - gave him the input shaft out of one of mine, and ordered a replacement from RPP - got it yesterday. I have the defective one with the drilled out pinion screw, so I'll see if I can get proof of purchase from him and submit to Horizon for a warranty claim. I know - if they do anything they'll send us another part which we've already covered. Maybe I can have an extra on hand then, give him his $20 back.



I also did not realize there were metal rods in those links, so that's certainly better than all plastic links like the other brand.
And yes, same great axles and chassis, shocks, etc.



Good info on the servo setup. It's still a really crappy servo. LOL



My perception is that us consumers have been spoiled by the quality of past product and the new stuff, while we understand it has to compete with the other brands, is not nearly the same. But it's a whole lot less money too, so we get it.



Can you tell us about parts availability? And why so many are being taken off your website? Are we going to be able to keep our rigs running over the long term? It's going to make a difference to your fan base.

Though i can't do this all the time, shoot me an email rtrujillo@horizonhobby.com with your shipping info and part numbers of what you replaced and I'll arrange it with product support.

AGAIN for anyone reading this, this is an exception to the rule...our guys will take care of you with a call.

As for replacement parts, sometimes parts will get discontinued automatically based on the "turn rates"...basically our warehouse system will note that if a part is not selling enough, then it will be discontinued...I think they weigh the cost of inventorying something to the sales etc....if it's not moving, then we don't need it. The challenge here is that a lot of the Ascender parts have been solid and consumers don't usually need to change them, so they can get on that list.

Our purchasing team will notify us usually before hand but you can imagine with the amount of product Horizon carries, stuff can get through the cracks.

If you or anyone here see's something disc for the Ascender, let me know and I'll look into it.

Rich

[Browneye]

Thanks Rich. Email sent.

[Browneye]

This has been resolved and many thanks to Horizon Hobbies and Rich Trujillo.
The owner is very happy with his rig - already buying and adding detailing parts, wheels and tires and such.

Can't wait for Ascender Ver 2.0

[smog]

Originally Posted by Browneye

Can't wait for Ascender Ver 2.0

The new Axles are gonna be freaking amazing!!

[rkj__]

Originally Posted by smog

The new Axles are gonna be freaking amazing!!

Oh really?


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