So what really is the advantage of upright front shocks?

[Rotare]

Hey guys,

Thinking I might consider doing an upright or cantilever style mod to my front shock set up. Not because I'm having any particular issues with the stock set suspension set up, or needing any room to remount the battery, just simply because I haven't focussed on this part of the car before and want to continue improving the car.

The upright shock mod is obviously popular with the TH, but why are people really doing it? What's the advantages? I've read multiple threads on this forum (probably most of them!) on this topic, but there seems some conflicting opinions as to what benefit this mod brings.

For example, I've read that many talk about this mod improving the articulation of the front suspension. When I look at the front suspension geometry in stock configuration I can't see that there is much, if anything to be gained. To me when the stock front suspension is fully compressed or in full droop it appears the dog bones are only just sitting in the drive cups, and the driveshaft less than a mm away from binding. How can an upright shock mod alone change this? In fact in a couple of posts people report the upright shock mod has reduced their total suspension range. Maybe I'm missing something?

There seems a general feeling that the stock front shocks (due to their size/spring choice etc?) are difficult to tune, so I'm guessing replacing the stock shock with a more standard size is an obvious advantage from this stand point. Correct?

Plenty say that upright shock mod makes their TH soooo much better, but don't really articulate what 'so much better' actually means. Others give more info and talk about the upright shocks improving high speed handling, but is this because their is more tune ability in using a different shock than stock, or is it because of the upright or cantilever suspension geometry is actually providing something?

Sorry if the answer to my questions is obvious, but I haven't been able to find any clear answers

Thanks in advance for your input

[wblteen]

I feel like it gives me many more tuning options. You can get more suspension travel if you use longer axles. I notice that the front suspension actually works now. Plus I gained room for a winch under the hood

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[Rotare]

Any idea what longer axles should be used?

[wblteen]

Team associated parts 9672 and 7381

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[Rotare]

Any idea how much extra suspension travel you achieve with these longer team associated drive shafts?

[Kleebatch]

uhmm correct me if i'm wrong but changing the lenght of the axle won't increase the suspension travel, it will just shifto both end point lower to the ground as the limiting factor remains the outdrive.

If you want to increase overall suspension travel then you need to change the whole outdrive/axle cinematic like some guys already did (see the link for an example)

Herbie the "THUG BUG" Baja style

Hope it helps

Claudio

[Dbx]

Upright or cantilever shock conversions get rid of the suspension bell cranks (not to be confused with steering bell cranks), reducing sticktion and slop in the system. You also get a longer shock travel. The longer shock travel means you are giving the damper a much longer length to perform it's task in = more precise damping.
Upright shock conversions do not generally give you more travel from what I've seen and experienced. The 85mm shocks most often used have around 23mm of travel depending on model. With uprights, provided you are using standard lower arm geometry, that is all the travel you are going to get, and I think it's not much different from stock. Changing drive shaft length just allows you to run more drooped/raise ride height without popping out drive shafts. This is only really helpful to overall travel if you manage to squeeze in shocks with more travel.
With cantilever setups, there is scope to get more travel from the 85mm shocks due to the angle of the shock. A longer sweep is possible for the 23mm travel. This is where the longer shafts will help.

[wblteen]

I used 92mm shocks internally limited to 87. With the extended axles. This allowed the suspension the compress until the dog bone bottomed out in the cup. I achieved more down and up travel, more suspension travel. With an open diff and 500k weight I never popped a dog bone or broke a shaft. The difference in crawling was significant

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[Dbx]

I looked at running gmade 93mm shocks, but the problem was, once you start to limit extension to tailor the uncompressed length, you very quicky end up with the same or less actual travel, and i didn't much fancy having shocks sticking way up high above the body (for purely easthetic reasons). This is one of the factors that has pushed me down the cantilever road. With my next itteration, i think i'll be getting close to an optimised geometry.

[Chicken Man]

I use my hammers differently, still RWD and just for the occasional bash on some dirt/tarmac.

The only reason I even tried this is because the standard springs that come with the GMade shocks are too soft and I haven't got around to buying some others.

I had some carbon fibre parts from Hobbyking leftover from when I had a drift chassis Link

Took a few minutes mucking around to get things in place but it shows a simple solution using the camber arm mounts would work. Obviously would need to make a solid piece out of aluminium for jumps/offroad but as it's getting colder I just enjoyed having something rc to do for the night.




Solved my problem but it's dodgy as haha.

[Chicken Man]

After bashing this setup since my last post I am really happy with it. No more donkey kicking on jumps. Still flips over like a mother on grippy stuff but that's more readily remedied by smaller diameter tyres than anything else.

Have done some decent jumps too, as in waist height on concrete and no failures... so far :P

Haven't tried it crawling as I don't crawl with the hammers (2wd blah blah). Can recommend this setup for anyone wanting to at the very least test out some shock options before splurging on anything expensive.

Only real drawback so far is from the first flip when I didn't have the body on and I scratched the bleed valve screws slightly.

[Chicken Man]

Bearing in mind this is just a trial and error kind of thing :P




The main reason I trimmed the cage is because this is held together by a tie-rod, if it was a one piece part you could make it sit much lower.


From what I have seen on this site the kits/parts made by some are really good and I would never recommend this over those, especially because if you do the trifecta of upright shocks/move battery/fix steering you are going to be much better off.

This will do me for my bashing for a while. Next mission is to ninja some steering out of servo horns and chicken wire... (joking).

[Di_Spencer]

Originally Posted by Chicken Man

Bearing in mind this is just a trial and error kind of thing




The main reason I trimmed the cage is because this is held together by a tie-rod, if it was a one piece part you could make it sit much lower.


From what I have seen on this site the kits/parts made by some are really good and I would never recommend this over those, especially because if you do the trifecta of upright shocks/move battery/fix steering you are going to be much better off.

This will do me for my bashing for a while. Next mission is to ninja some steering out of servo horns and chicken wire... (joking).

That looks good. What shock tower did you use and how did you mount it.

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[Sr.Irie]

I am kind of late to the party as always, been busy.
The biggest reason I went to the upright tower that I do not already see posted here is friction. The friction from the rod ends and cantilever rocker makes it not move as freely as I would like. Then the more dirt that got in from running, it would get worse. No matter how light I set it up on the bench the longer I ran the less my front end would react. With my conditions (Oregon moon dirt, super volcanic) I could not make it through a full battery with the front end working as I set it up to.

[Chicken Man]

https://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/...dProduct=67943 Is what I used - that and a tie rod.

They are not ideal - a custom alloy piece would be imo a little shorter. Sr Irie's kit is much better.

I just had them floating around, was bored - and annoyed I couldn't use the Gmade shocks up front (for bashing, they would have been fine for crawling) without buying harder springs.

[Rotare]

Originally Posted by Sr.Irie

I am kind of late to the party as always, been busy.
The biggest reason I went to the upright tower that I do not already see posted here is friction. The friction from the rod ends and cantilever rocker makes it not move as freely as I would like. Then the more dirt that got in from running, it would get worse. No matter how light I set it up on the bench the longer I ran the less my front end would react. With my conditions (Oregon moon dirt, super volcanic) I could not make it through a full battery with the front end working as I set it up to.

Yeah that makes sense. I find the same with mine that after a bit of use in dirty dusty conditions the front suspension starts to 'fade' and basically no longer rebounds to static height.

Don't some of the aftermarket suspension rockers (like HR) include a bearing? I assume this minimises the friction at the rocker.

[Di_Spencer]

Stock rockers also have bearing it is the linkages that get tight.

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[DeathVirus]

If the cantilever system is so terrible, why does it make the Traxxas Summit such a good truck? Why does it give the E-Revo such amazing handling? Is the TH version just an el-cheapo version? You can argue a-arm length, but even the Slayer Pro with its short arms is amazing

[Dbx]

Originally Posted by DeathVirus

If the cantilever system is so terrible, why does it make the Traxxas Summit such a good truck? Why does it give the E-Revo such amazing handling? Is the TH version just an el-cheapo version? You can argue a-arm length, but even the Slayer Pro with its short arms is amazing

You make a very good point.
I think the problem is with the Vaterra rod ends. They are very tight, and bind way more than they should. My twin is now 18 months old and the rod ends are only just starting to free off.

After a long time experimenting with the Twins front end geometry, and a range of replacement shocks, i came to the conclusion that the stock setup is actually very, very good, bar the tight rod ends. Replace the rods with traxxas revo ends, and it's gonna be great.

But then comes the actual problems with the Twins. Steering and weight distribution. You need a bell crank system, and you need to get the battery forward and low down to make the Twin Hammers really shine. The best way to acheive these things involves abandoning the stock cantilever setup. Oh, and people like the look of vertical shocks. Conspicuous bling!