Comp Crawling Qualifier Attendance by Year (2012-2014)

[KBrog]

yawn

[SkaldidDog]

Originally Posted by 4xFord

I haven't seen it touched on, but accessibility is a huge issue.

There is a strong barrier to entry. Convincing a family that you should spend your limited time and funds traveling to an RC comp in BFE is tough. Comps that run from 7am to 9pm for 2-3 days is out of control.

For me I just could not justify it to myself anymore. Flights, rental cars, couple hours drive from airports to comp spots, expensive yet shitty hotels, etc. At the same time that I was getting tired of the traveling, I had personal gripes about the course format changes and ridiculously long length of competitions.

Nationals 2012 I didn't get to have a single dinner with friends, for me seeing everyone was half the fun. On the other hand Nationals 2011 ended by 5pm everyday and you had Vegas for the rest of the day/night.

I enjoyed the competition side, but the camaraderie and fun that came along with it kept me coming back more than anything else.

I think Carey is right about having generally complete able courses with tough bonuses. If you want numbers and new blood that is.

Like all discretionary time/income it's all about cost-benefit analysis. It's obvious that for many that balance has tipped. We miss you.

But it's road trip time baby!!!!! Time to krawl wiff all y'all in Bad AZ. Looking forward to seeing that beautiful lake again. It's just plain nuts.

J

[ROWDY RACING]

Originally Posted by 4xFord

I haven't seen it touched on, but accessibility is a huge issue.

There is a strong barrier to entry. Convincing a family that you should spend your limited time and funds traveling to an RC comp in BFE is tough. Comps that run from 7am to 9pm for 2-3 days is out of control.

For me I just could not justify it to myself anymore. Flights, rental cars, couple hours drive from airports to comp spots, expensive yet shitty hotels, etc. At the same time that I was getting tired of the traveling, I had personal gripes about the course format changes and ridiculously long length of competitions.

Nationals 2012 I didn't get to have a single dinner with friends, for me seeing everyone was half the fun. On the other hand Nationals 2011 ended by 5pm everyday and you had Vegas for the rest of the day/night.

I enjoyed the competition side, but the camaraderie and fun that came along with it kept me coming back more than anything else.

I think Carey is right about having generally complete able courses with tough bonuses. If you want numbers and new blood that is.

That's funny, I thought you couldnt hang out because you had to rebuild all your rigs...

[The Violator]

I think blaming the demise of comp crawling on Jake is disingenuous. One event surely does not sully an entire sanctioning bodies reputation, short of something drastic. And running a super with a body that is not quite legal sure as hell did not kill comp attendance. LAck of new blood killed it. The same people were going to the same events. And the same guys were winning.


Parker introducing new ideas to the comp side of things was a good idea. A little change at that point might have spurred growth. Instead people pissed and moaned because it was not the same format they had ran at the last event. And judging by the number of events, and the number of drivers showing up to them, he clearly had the right idea. MAKE IT FUN, and they will come. I am in the hotel at the summer shootout, the only west coast qualifier this year on the books, and they could not muster 50 drivers. Of course tonight after the 2.2s ran we ran with Parker in a G6. 2 hours of drive time, and that was only the first part. And I saw kids, moms, grandpa's and a many grown ass manchildren out there running through the rocks in the dark. I asked the guy I was running behind if he was running 2.2 pro and he did not even know about the comp side of things. WTF.


I have been saying it, and I will say it again. The lack of a RTR comp crawler doomed this side of the hobby ( and don't bother mentioning the LCC, is was not worth the effort, IMO) . The Wraith RTR exploded theirs.

[EvilTwin v2]

Originally Posted by The Violator

I think blaming the demise of comp crawling on Jake is disingenuous. One event surely does not sully an entire sanctioning bodies reputation, short of something drastic. And running a super with a body that is not quite legal sure as hell did not kill comp attendance. LAck of new blood killed it. The same people were going to the same events. And the same guys were winning.


Parker introducing new ideas to the comp side of things was a good idea. A little change at that point might have spurred growth. Instead people pissed and moaned because it was not the same format they had ran at the last event. And judging by the number of events, and the number of drivers showing up to them, he clearly had the right idea. MAKE IT FUN, and they will come. I am in the hotel at the summer shootout, the only west coast qualifier this year on the books, and they could not muster 50 drivers. Of course tonight after the 2.2s ran we ran with Parker in a G6. 2 hours of drive time, and that was only the first part. And I saw kids, moms, grandpa's and a many grown ass manchildren out there running through the rocks in the dark. I asked the guy I was running behind if he was running 2.2 pro and he did not even know about the comp side of things. WTF.


I have been saying it, and I will say it again. The lack of a RTR comp crawler doomed this side of the hobby ( and don't bother mentioning the LCC, is was not worth the effort, IMO) . The Wraith RTR exploded theirs.

One event was enough for Proline to stop sponsoring comp crawling, and even stop all development of all comp crawling products. They were the title sponser and put forth a fair sum of cash into that event, to see the drama of the guy in charge cheat, handle the giveaway as a way to make more money, and also cause bad communication due to not being at drivers' meetings, etc... There were also reports of his drinking alcohol throughout. If you can't see how how the guy in charge of the entire thing could tarnish our image, then you are a fool.

As for Parker, I commented further down that I wasn't critical of the G6 events. Those were not in direct competition with the USRCCA. It was his multi lap comp class and the way he handled leaving that left a bad taste.

In true fashion of your character, I like how you focused on those two items and failed to comment on anything else. You are little more than a troll who likes to stir the pot and cause conflict in this hobby. I don't recall you ever posting anything positive or attempting to help improve things.

[The Violator]

Originally Posted by EvilTwin v2

In true fashion of your character, I like how you focused on those two items and failed to comment on anything else. You are little more than a troll who likes to stir the pot and cause conflict in this hobby. I don't recall you ever posting anything positive or attempting to help improve things.

Who are you to question anyones character?

http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/feedb...iltwin-v2.html

http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/feedb...iltwin-v2.html

http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/feedb...iltwin-v2.html

[ROWDY RACING]

[SkaldidDog]

Since the goings on with ProLine were before my time I can't speak to them directly. But if that mess happened in 2009, and crawling increased dramatically from there to 2012/13, then declines becoming apparent in 2014 surely are more the result of more recent events. I think crawling survived the 2009 bad press and drama only to fall victim to lack of vendor support and advertising (new blood per Ted) amongst other things.

Regardless...get your crawl on! There are sick lines to pull.

J

[EvilTwin v2]

Originally Posted by SkaldidDog

Since the goings on with ProLine were before my time I can't speak to them directly. But if that mess happened in 2009, and crawling increased dramatically from there to 2012/13, then declines becoming apparent in 2014 surely are more the result of more recent events. I think crawling survived the 2009 bad press and drama only to fall victim to lack of vendor support and advertising (new blood per Ted) amongst other things.

Regardless...get your crawl on! There are sick lines to pull.

J

I only bring these things up so we don't repeat the same mistakes. If you think that in today's economy, where a couple parent companies own all but a couple of the brands, that you can lose a major brand such as ProLine without it catching the attention of the rest of them, you're sorely mistaken. Where do you think the lack of support and marketing originated? Not everybody jumped ship at the end of 2009. Just ProLine. But it started the ball rolling and cast a dark shadow over our niche of RC's that we've not been able to crawl out of.

However, if you think crawling was increasing until last year, you're sorely mistaken. 2011 was probably the peak. That's when the growth ended and by 2012, we were struggling to hold on. 2013 was far worse and 2014, even worse.

There has been an elitist attitude around crawling from the beginning. It's really more suited to the builder than the normal hobby shop customer.

We need to look at improving the experience for the new guys coming in. Without them to replace those leaving, the hobby will fail. I've seen it in so many areas...a group starts together and grows together, getting better and better with better trucks and harder courses. Soon they forget what it was like being a new guy coming in, and the entire comp is formatted around the skill level of the core group. A few are able to come in and catch up quickly, but most don't and feel there's no place in comp crawling for them. Then life starts to get in the way for the original members and as they leave, there's nobody to take their place.

[The Violator]

Originally Posted by EvilTwin v2

I only bring these things up so we don't repeat the same mistakes. If you think that in today's economy, where a couple parent companies own all but a couple of the brands, that you can lose a major brand such as ProLine without it catching the attention of the rest of them, you're sorely mistaken. Where do you think the lack of support and marketing originated? Not everybody jumped ship at the end of 2009. Just ProLine. But it started the ball rolling and cast a dark shadow over our niche of RC's that we've not been able to crawl out of.

However, if you think crawling was increasing until last year, you're sorely mistaken. 2011 was probably the peak. That's when the growth ended and by 2012, we were struggling to hold on. 2013 was far worse and 2014, even worse.

There has been an elitist attitude around crawling from the beginning. It's really more suited to the builder than the normal hobby shop customer.

We need to look at improving the experience for the new guys coming in. Without them to replace those leaving, the hobby will fail. I've seen it in so many areas...a group starts together and grows together, getting better and better with better trucks and harder courses. Soon they forget what it was like being a new guy coming in, and the entire comp is formatted around the skill level of the core group. A few are able to come in and catch up quickly, but most don't and feel there's no place in comp crawling for them. Then life starts to get in the way for the original members and as they leave, there's nobody to take their place.

Getting over worlds in 09 would be your best bet. By your logic Jason and Badger are to blame. THEY chose to hand off the USRCCA to Jake, so..........


After Worlds we got the XR-10, the LCC, the 1.9 Losi, and the local vendors. We saw the super300's ( actually picked mine up at worlds ), ti fighters, and now there are a few new designs (DLux, etc).


Comp crawling was a niche. Not everyone has access to rock. Not everyone is willing to build a car with parts sourced from a dozen vendors. It is labor intensive, and really only suited to those who are most competitive.


I have said for years that the bonus gates should really separate the men from the boys. And NEVER make gate 1 or 2 the hardest. That pisses off anyone who cannot get past it, and from a logistical standpoint it kills course flow. You cannot start judging another driver if the first one is stuck at gate 1.


The USRCCA had a small chance with the trail class, but they shit the bed on that one. It really should have been a run what you brung class that anyone running a G6 could bring their rig and run some gates. But again with the rules making many of the THOUSANDS of G6 and scale rigs not legal. A real missed opportunity, but it is what it is. My Wraith is not legal, and I am surely not going to change it. All the class should have been was an open door to show people what comp crawling was all about. Well it did show them, it is about RULES, and how many can they add to every single class.


USRCCA is finally moving to eliminate the obsolete classes. 1.9 and super are done. People like them, but dropping them would allow running 2.2 pro on a saturday, and 2.2s on Sunday. Run super and 1.9 on Friday if you really want them. Moving the 2 classes with the most people to the main days opens it up to cannot take 4 days off.


I The G6 style event at the end of the day should be included at every event. It gives the people driving time that they are not getting during the day. Face it, even with 3 classes, 5 courses, 5 minutes each you only have 75 minutes of driving over 3 days. The G6 was 240 over both days. That event really made the comp side worth doing.



I have not been to a "team' event, but the idea intrigues me. In my mind you have 40 drivers, split them up randomly into 5 teams, have them build and judge their own courses. It eliminates the 10 guys who have to do all the judging being completely cooked at the end of the day. And I think the random teams would be more of a team building exercise, letting more people get to know more people. That way even the people who have not met me, would find out just how awesome I really am


Now I am gonna climb up on my soap box:


USRCCA should handle a couple of issues. First and foremost they should certify comp Marshals. If a comp is a USRCCA backed comp and you have one of the certified marshals in attendance they will automatically become the deciding factor. They can speak for USRCCA and ensure that the comp is run to the level and respect it should get. I understand the guy running the event is in charge, but if it is under the umbrella of USRCCA, it needs to be ran in a way that best serves not only the drivers, but the USRCCA. There is just no money in this hobby, and until Fish wins the lottery and can travel to every single event there should be a group of people he trusts to handle things in his absence.


Courses need to be walked by all the judges beforehand. So EVERYONE is on the same page. I have seen the same group cry at more than one event about anything and everything. Once the courses are approved by the judges and marshals it is done. At the minimum the Marshals should walk with the course judges to have an extra set of eyes to make sure every gate is doable, or has an out.

[TURBOFEST]

Helluva post Ted.

[krawlfreak]

Originally Posted by The Violator

Getting over worlds in 09 would be your best bet. By your logic Jason and Badger are to blame. THEY chose to hand off the USRCCA to Jake, so..........


After Worlds we got the XR-10, the LCC, the 1.9 Losi, and the local vendors. We saw the super300's ( actually picked mine up at worlds ), ti fighters, and now there are a few new designs (DLux, etc).


Comp crawling was a niche. Not everyone has access to rock. Not everyone is willing to build a car with parts sourced from a dozen vendors. It is labor intensive, and really only suited to those who are most competitive.


I have said for years that the bonus gates should really separate the men from the boys. And NEVER make gate 1 or 2 the hardest. That pisses off anyone who cannot get past it, and from a logistical standpoint it kills course flow. You cannot start judging another driver if the first one is stuck at gate 1.


The USRCCA had a small chance with the trail class, but they shit the bed on that one. It really should have been a run what you brung class that anyone running a G6 could bring their rig and run some gates. But again with the rules making many of the THOUSANDS of G6 and scale rigs not legal. A real missed opportunity, but it is what it is. My Wraith is not legal, and I am surely not going to change it. All the class should have been was an open door to show people what comp crawling was all about. Well it did show them, it is about RULES, and how many can they add to every single class.


USRCCA is finally moving to eliminate the obsolete classes. 1.9 and super are done. People like them, but dropping them would allow running 2.2 pro on a saturday, and 2.2s on Sunday. Run super and 1.9 on Friday if you really want them. Moving the 2 classes with the most people to the main days opens it up to cannot take 4 days off.


I The G6 style event at the end of the day should be included at every event. It gives the people driving time that they are not getting during the day. Face it, even with 3 classes, 5 courses, 5 minutes each you only have 75 minutes of driving over 3 days. The G6 was 240 over both days. That event really made the comp side worth doing.



I have not been to a "team' event, but the idea intrigues me. In my mind you have 40 drivers, split them up randomly into 5 teams, have them build and judge their own courses. It eliminates the 10 guys who have to do all the judging being completely cooked at the end of the day. And I think the random teams would be more of a team building exercise, letting more people get to know more people. That way even the people who have not met me, would find out just how awesome I really am


Now I am gonna climb up on my soap box:


USRCCA should handle a couple of issues. First and foremost they should certify comp Marshals. If a comp is a USRCCA backed comp and you have one of the certified marshals in attendance they will automatically become the deciding factor. They can speak for USRCCA and ensure that the comp is run to the level and respect it should get. I understand the guy running the event is in charge, but if it is under the umbrella of USRCCA, it needs to be ran in a way that best serves not only the drivers, but the USRCCA. There is just no money in this hobby, and until Fish wins the lottery and can travel to every single event there should be a group of people he trusts to handle things in his absence.


Courses need to be walked by all the judges beforehand. So EVERYONE is on the same page. I have seen the same group cry at more than one event about anything and everything. Once the courses are approved by the judges and marshals it is done. At the minimum the Marshals should walk with the course judges to have an extra set of eyes to make sure every gate is doable, or has an out.

i wish i could have liked this post multiple times

[Alcrawler]

This may not be right place to ask this but the title made me think of it so.
I was out at local spot doing little testing this weekend. I had several folks come up and check out what I was doing. Tennis balls all over rock is sure way of attracting people. One guy was very interested he was asking how to get going in something like this. I told him about are comps and forum and explained the difference class. The one thing that would be very easy to tell him I think would be check out rccrawler.com and look in the forum under pro or sportsmen trail class. If you think about it there's not really a section for class specific it's broken out in different brands. Witch works for us but not really user friendly for someone that's not in the loop if you will. Look at some different forms racing shooting. I do little long range shooting and the forums are broken down in different class.

Anyway just trying to help keep it going. Something to think.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[SkaldidDog]

Good points Ted.

I had not noticed that the AZ event lacked a Marshall/Rules committee member. Good eye. Maybe if more of the Marshalls/RC members were active crawlers that would help alleviate that problem...and hopefully have stopped me from building a 14" wide bonus gate last weekend ...sorry DLux.


J

[tapped-out]

Originally Posted by SkaldidDog

Good points Ted.

I had not noticed that the AZ event lacked a Marshall/Rules committee member. Good eye. Maybe if more of the Marshalls/RC members were active crawlers that would help alleviate that problem...and hopefully have stopped me from building a 14" wide bonus gate last weekend ...sorry DLux.


J

Or use a tech stick when chalking the course...
Great course BTW...

[EvilTwin v2]

Originally Posted by The Violator

Getting over worlds in 09 would be your best bet. By your logic Jason and Badger are to blame. THEY chose to hand off the USRCCA to Jake, so..........


After Worlds we got the XR-10, the LCC, the 1.9 Losi, and the local vendors. We saw the super300's ( actually picked mine up at worlds ), ti fighters, and now there are a few new designs (DLux, etc).


Comp crawling was a niche. Not everyone has access to rock. Not everyone is willing to build a car with parts sourced from a dozen vendors. It is labor intensive, and really only suited to those who are most competitive.


I have said for years that the bonus gates should really separate the men from the boys. And NEVER make gate 1 or 2 the hardest. That pisses off anyone who cannot get past it, and from a logistical standpoint it kills course flow. You cannot start judging another driver if the first one is stuck at gate 1.


The USRCCA had a small chance with the trail class, but they shit the bed on that one. It really should have been a run what you brung class that anyone running a G6 could bring their rig and run some gates. But again with the rules making many of the THOUSANDS of G6 and scale rigs not legal. A real missed opportunity, but it is what it is. My Wraith is not legal, and I am surely not going to change it. All the class should have been was an open door to show people what comp crawling was all about. Well it did show them, it is about RULES, and how many can they add to every single class.


USRCCA is finally moving to eliminate the obsolete classes. 1.9 and super are done. People like them, but dropping them would allow running 2.2 pro on a saturday, and 2.2s on Sunday. Run super and 1.9 on Friday if you really want them. Moving the 2 classes with the most people to the main days opens it up to cannot take 4 days off.


I The G6 style event at the end of the day should be included at every event. It gives the people driving time that they are not getting during the day. Face it, even with 3 classes, 5 courses, 5 minutes each you only have 75 minutes of driving over 3 days. The G6 was 240 over both days. That event really made the comp side worth doing.



I have not been to a "team' event, but the idea intrigues me. In my mind you have 40 drivers, split them up randomly into 5 teams, have them build and judge their own courses. It eliminates the 10 guys who have to do all the judging being completely cooked at the end of the day. And I think the random teams would be more of a team building exercise, letting more people get to know more people. That way even the people who have not met me, would find out just how awesome I really am


Now I am gonna climb up on my soap box:


USRCCA should handle a couple of issues. First and foremost they should certify comp Marshals. If a comp is a USRCCA backed comp and you have one of the certified marshals in attendance they will automatically become the deciding factor. They can speak for USRCCA and ensure that the comp is run to the level and respect it should get. I understand the guy running the event is in charge, but if it is under the umbrella of USRCCA, it needs to be ran in a way that best serves not only the drivers, but the USRCCA. There is just no money in this hobby, and until Fish wins the lottery and can travel to every single event there should be a group of people he trusts to handle things in his absence.


Courses need to be walked by all the judges beforehand. So EVERYONE is on the same page. I have seen the same group cry at more than one event about anything and everything. Once the courses are approved by the judges and marshals it is done. At the minimum the Marshals should walk with the course judges to have an extra set of eyes to make sure every gate is doable, or has an out.

That is by far the most intelligent and useful thing I've seen you post. I agree with many of the points you made.

As for G6 not being adopted by the USRCCA, it is run at many events and all are open to have a G6 class at their comp. However, not all comp locations are ideal for such an event. Having travelled a fair amount through the east, I've comped at places that would be perfect for such a course and many others in which the terrain simply wouldn't support it.

Being on the rules committee, I saw the Trail Class take shape. In all honesty, not all aspects of the class were my first choice. However, it was voted upon by representatives accross the country and I will support and promote it. The basic idea was to construct a class that would promote growth within the hobby. A person with a new truck from their hobby shop could come out and find they weren't horribly outmatched by the $1000+ trucks. While some mods will improve performance, most money spent within this class is only to strengthen the truck. The format is also very close to what is run in the other classes such that it will be any easy transition from Trail class to 2.2S or Pro, and courses can be built using whatever terrain is available...from short, technical courses, to long courses over varied terrain.

I've said it to many people already about the class: before you pick apart the reasons you think you don't like it, try running it. You might just have fun.

[TEDROCKZ]

To whom ever hacked Teds account, very good post.

[The Violator]

Originally Posted by SkaldidDog

Good points Ted.

I had not noticed that the AZ event lacked a Marshall/Rules committee member. Good eye. Maybe if more of the Marshalls/RC members were active crawlers that would help alleviate that problem...and hopefully have stopped me from building a 14" wide bonus gate last weekend ...sorry DLux.


J

The gate width issue really should not be an issue on a bonus. As long as you did not make it smaller for certain drivers ( now that is a great idea, sliding scale, Ted gets a 16" gate, Joel and Jake 8") , it can be wrong, as long as it is wrong all day, IMO. Of course a quick walk through of judges might have caught a narrow gate, or let it stand because it was a bonus, and they should be more challenging. Again let time management and bonuses separate the top drivers allowing everyone to have a good time.

What really surprises me was that the crying crew did not piss and moan and whine about it. I had the crying crew tell me I was not allowed to judge because they did not like the boundaries I put up on the bonus lines. ( I was not sure of some of the lines, so I made a judgment call and clarified things) I guess if you cannot drive at wide open through the bonus it is to hard for them. And if the promoter will not step up and support his judge , then you have the crying crew whining about every single thing all day. It was bad enough they have 27 spotters for every driver, or the rap music playing talking about eating ***** and ****ing hoe's playing on the walking trail with grandmas and kids around.

[nappahdog]

big difference between stepping up and taking sides (by the way I told them built it how they want.) we all had a good time and it ended up being my favorite course of the day.

[nappahdog]

Originally Posted by tapped-out

Or use a tech stick when chalking the course...
Great course BTW...

that was YOU???