2016-2017 rules and new ideas discussion

[Curcal]

My RWYB class would be run on a separate day and an easy access location. I by no means would replace my local club comp. Just a promotion tool.

[youngblood]

Originally Posted by Hittman

I think if you make too drastic of changes to the comp classes right now, it will kill it.

It's hard to kill something that's already dead.

[tapped-out]

Originally Posted by youngblood

It's hard to kill something that's already dead.

Comp crawling isn't dead... yet.... we've declined in numbers, some areas are stronger then others..

[Erik D_lux]

Originally Posted by Dezertdirt

You're right they are two different subjects but I couldn't think of another place to put it. The reason I brought up kits is that it has become harder and harder for new people to get into comp with parts getting harder to find and the parts that do exsist are getting more costly. Also, a stock losi 2 would completely flounder in 2.2s as the lines have gotten closer and closer to moa lines.

Originally Posted by youngblood

If I could get something like this I'd possibly be interested in dipping my toe back into the comp side. I can get a full carbon fiber 250 quad racer kit off ebay for $120 but I cant hardly buy just a set of CF 2.2 rims for that much. A nice pro roller kit in the 3-400 dollar range would grab a lot of peoples attention again.

As a manufacturer of full rolling cars (that gets no credit for being a manufacturer of full rolling cars ) this really interests me.

I would love to offer something to get some people back in. Problem is that if you were to provide a car for the 3-400 dollar range, its going to have issues. If I were Axial, I think this would be ok as I feel its accepted for them to produce a car that needs upgrades right out of the box. For some reason, I feel that all the aftermarket manufacturers are held to a different standard. Our parts fail, and it seems to be a HUGE deal.

My point is, I would like to know what is REALLY wanted and needed in the hobby. I could try and make a 3-400 dollar car but is that what people really want? I think your example above of buying a set of CF wheels for $120 is a good example. I feel like I can suggest my G10 wheels that I brought to market for a cheap alternative at just $54 for all 4, but then I feel like I get push back because people want the bling? EX.. Here is your $300 car.... Yeah, but I dont like plastic wheels, links etc,... Ok, but nicer materials make for higher prices....

Another example is the Mad Torque crawler. This thing is $167 RTR!!!!! Yeah, you will probably want to tweak it and upgrade it but that is the spirit of the hobby. If you dont want to tweak and fix, I might suggest this hobby is not for you. You can upgrade this entire truck, part by part until its 99.9% Berg. Thats a pretty good deal and a great entry level. I have no idea why there is so much push back on this car not only from individuals but also when it was brought up to event coordinators as a stock class. Its as if it has to be Axial or nothing?

Last little rant on cheap parts.... I made up some ultra cheap axles that use the above Mad Torque gear boxes and surrounded it with Berg parts. Not only were they cheap but they were strong and light. You could win Worlds with these axles and the right driver, no problem. This product never had a chance. I feel it was because it was marketed as "cheap" and people only want the "finer" parts anymore.

So please, since you guys are in here and are my target audience, if you could, let me know what you think is really needed and what you want. Maybe you could elaborate on why you wouldnt simply buy a Mad torque?

Originally Posted by chevotafun

IMO you lose 5 people to gain 1 and that one is like us we like the thought of building something that will out do the guy out front kicking peoples ass, but most are like I will never beat that guy so why even come out

I always get torn with this conversation.

One part of me says that we need to seek anybody and everybody at all costs. The other part says that it would be a bigger detriment to let this type of person in.

I think a huge part of why crawling went away is because there are two different types of people.

There are people who enjoy driving RC cars and this is a cool way to do it and then there are people who enjoy crawling that happen to use an RC car as a way to do it.

I think a lot of the people that left the hobby were the people who whined and cried about things being too expensive, being too much effort to win etc,. MOST of the people who are still in the hard core crawling community have a fantastic view on the hobby and are great to be around and comp with. If we MUST pull new people in that have the same whiner/crying back ground then what will we have? The same thing that we did have. A hard core group with a great view on the hobby surrounded by people who are negative and bring the hobby down.

I apologize as I can only imagine how brutal this must sound but to me, I would like to keep crawling as it is and let only quality people slip through the cracks to join us.

Running a qualifier with 20 folks, taking the stress way down and still doing 8 courses with nothing but the best drivers out there. Does it get much better?

Quality over quantity all day long. You want to join us? Here is how we run our hobby. Love it or leave it.

Originally Posted by Robbob

We had big company interest years ago until something was done that changed their minds. Thankfully the 'public' spoke up here and it was changed. Sadly though I think the damaged was already done.

Originally Posted by Robbob

2012 we had interest
Hot Bodies Competition Rock Crawler | CompetitionX


Stay with what works, what was working then.

Putting the two quotes together, are you implying that HB made a car and then retracted it? If so, do you have more information?

I personally would not think that too many rules could effect a bigger manufacturer. What specific rules would really put them down and out?

Wheelbase? Different links (that you were probably going to do anyway) will fix this

Body? $25 gets you a new one?

Maybe overall width? It would be crazy to go that wide anyway.

Not sure what rule would really hurt them....

Originally Posted by Hittman

Running trail class locally grew our club a ton last year. Not only did it grow the scale side, but it also grew the comp side.

You have done a great job Christian!

Sorry for the long winded rant. Guess I am on one today. Hopefully nobody takes offense to it.

[Curcal]

Good post! You persoally have done alot to keep this whole thing going. I love what our hobby does and i love what our hobby has. Thanks for makin the parts thatbi dont have the machinery to make myself plus your mad scientist ways in pushing things forward.

[chevotafun]

[QUOTE=Erik D_lux;54226
I always get torn with this conversation.

One part of me says that we need to seek anybody and everybody at all costs. The other part says that it would be a bigger detriment to let this type of person in.

I think a huge part of why crawling went away is because there are two different types of people.

There are people who enjoy driving RC cars and this is a cool way to do it and then there are people who enjoy crawling that happen to use an RC car as a way to do it.

I think a lot of the people that left the hobby were the people who whined and cried about things being too expensive, being too much effort to win etc,. MOST of the people who are still in the hard core crawling community have a fantastic view on the hobby and are great to be around and comp with. If we MUST pull new people in that have the same whiner/crying back ground then what will we have? The same thing that we did have. A hard core group with a great view on the hobby surrounded by people who are negative and bring the hobby down.

I apologize as I can only imagine how brutal this must sound but to me, I would like to keep crawling as it is and let only quality people slip through the cracks to join us.

Running a qualifier with 20 folks, taking the stress way down and still doing 8 courses with nothing but the best drivers out there. Does it get much better?

Quality over quantity all day long. You want to join us? Here is how we run our hobby. Love it or leave it.




Well Said Eric
No need to apologize, you have done more for this hobby than 99% of us,
and I Couldn't agree more, you are 100% right in everything that you said above.

I to would rather have Quality over Quantity any day of the week, with no cry babies around just a bunch of guys that really want to be there and truly enjoy the hobby.

Yeah everyone says they want a cheap crawler, but do they really?
I don't think so, if that was the case we all wouldn't be driving $2,500.00 dollar trucks.

Thank you for all you do for this hobby

[Dezertdirt]

Originally Posted by Erik D_lux

As a manufacturer of full rolling cars (that gets no credit for being a manufacturer of full rolling cars ) this really interests me.

Last little rant on cheap parts.... I made up some ultra cheap axles that use the above Mad Torque gear boxes and surrounded it with Berg parts. Not only were they cheap but they were strong and light. You could win Worlds with these axles and the right driver, no problem. This product never had a chance. I feel it was because it was marketed as "cheap" and people only want the "finer" parts anymore.

So please, since you guys are in here and are my target audience, if you could, let me know what you think is really needed and what you want. Maybe you could elaborate on why you wouldnt simply buy a Mad torque?

When did you start offering rollers/sliders? I wish I knew this earlier. I would buy mt moded axles but they came and went so fast that I missed them. I would also consider doing an mt myself if I had the equipment and skills to do it. Also the mt doesn't have much part support I agree that $300-$400 may be too hard to do but $500-$550 maybe doable.


A moded light mt roller/slder/kit with a Dlux chassis might be just what we need for $450-$500. A dlux superlight slider/roller/kit would also be cool too, coud this be done for around $1000?

The problem Chevotafun is that most people don't start with a $2000 trucks, it occurs in $45 intervals over some years for most scalers.

[Erik D_lux]

Not sure how long its been that I have been offering full RTR cars. Its not something that I fully advertise, just something I have always done. There are sooooooo many options that I wouldnt know how to put it on my site. Its not even just my parts either, I will build anything a guy wants.

MT axles are not really "gone". I just dont advertise them on my site anymore. You can still buy all the individual parts from nitrorcx.com or I still have a bunch sitting around.

You dont really need much more skills or equipment to build an MT set of axles than you do to build XR axles. Its all pretty much bolt on stuff with maybe an exception of using a dremel to clearance something here or there.

The MT actually has TONS of parts support since lots of Berg parts transfer right over. Example... my Berg axle tubes fit on MT cases, Berg gears can be made to fit into MT cases, Berg shafts can fit, with my tubes after market chubs can fit making it fit aftermarket knuckles. What else could you need at that point?

If you just want cheap, that can be done, kinda.

G10 glue on wheels $54
Rover tires $45
Plastic links $30?
Delrin chassis $75
Modded MT axles $275 (with some tricks up my sleeve, but decent axles that can be upgraded)
Electronics $300ish?

About $780 total and other than the links, you would have a start but probably want to upgrade the gears to Berg gears? I should have some close to RTR axles in the near future that could need ZERO upgrading starting at $425. That could bring it all to $930 but not sure if people would be satisfied with things like plastic links and delrin chassis?

Who would be happy with something like this? I would love to find a good common ground that would entice new people to get in. I have honestly been working on it (see the trick up my sleeve comment above) and I will have some cool parts coming in within the next little bit to drive prices way down and quality way up.

[Erik D_lux]

Hard to believe but.... I really wouldnt need it to be about "me" either. If other chassis manufacturers wanted to make a delrin chassis for example, I would be happy to offer those too. I could even cut them to order so there is no initial cost or inventory? Maybe put some thought into it and do more with other manufacturers? Brood and Holmes might be able to offer their low cost motors and ESC?

Edit:

CI 6 bolt wheels could be a great example. About $25 for 4 so that could knock another $30 off the total price.

[Dezertdirt]

Dlux you don't need to make it rtr, an unassembled kit would be fine. Don't include tires or electronics because there are so many options and people have different preferences. Could you do aluminum links, plastic tend to brake. A delrin or g10 chassis is a good idea. Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing those new rtr axles that are $425.

[chevotafun]

Originally Posted by Dezertdirt

The problem Chevotafun is that most people don't start with a $2000 trucks, it occurs in $45 intervals over some years for most scalers.

Yes and No,
Over some years I think not,
Bought my XR for 400 and within 6 months I had over $2000.00 into my XR.
Or how about a guys who just bought a XR off me for about $700 but it has about $2000 in parts.

This is the big difference between crawler guys and the scale guys, Crawler guys jump in with both feet and the scale guys inch in a inch at a time.

This will be my 4th yr and if I built my crawler $45 bucks at a time I wouldn't be done yet. hell I would of just bought my fourth wheel LOL

[youngblood]

Thank you for all the posts Erik, good stuff!

Originally Posted by Dezertdirt

Dlux you don't need to make it rtr, an unassembled kit would be fine. Don't include tires or electronics because there are so many options and people have different preferences. Could you do aluminum links, plastic tend to brake. A delrin or g10 chassis is a good idea. Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing those new rtr axles that are $425.

This.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Erik D_lux

Putting the two quotes together, are you implying that HB made a car and then retracted it? If so, do you have more information?

I personally would not think that too many rules could effect a bigger manufacturer. What specific rules would really put them down and out?

Wheelbase? Different links (that you were probably going to do anyway) will fix this

Body? $25 gets you a new one?

Maybe overall width? It would be crazy to go that wide anyway.

Not sure what rule would really hurt them....

Only thing I can find is more pointing to the 2012 Nuremburg show where they had their prototype.
Hot Bodies Competition Rock Crawler « Big Squid RC – News, Reviews, Videos, and More!

I just remember seeing the article back then - looked promising then just poof. With recent HPI issues we're lucky to even have tires left but they showed interest back then.

We had Venom in the show too back then and others coming in to dabble.

Maybe Axial would put their builder kits back out? Vendors could buy axle kits and build their own rigs.

I honestly don't know on the rules part of your question. I know what I see but I come from a racing world where things have evolved so much and rules and classes get changed around so much its like drowning anytime I want to travel to a race. Its become so watered down by people who think participation awards should be handed out before they even race.

Unfortunately that is catered to because there is the concept of 'hey that will bring more people' when in reality and big pictures it doesn't.

I applaud the effort to try new ideas and changes. Its nice and healthy to see people trying to find ways to help grow the sport.

Im not saying more rules - but rules that make sense to benefit the class and big picture. 2016 just got here and we're talking rule changes for 2016/17? And especially the one that brought all this about?

Bodiless in the 2.2S class will not bring 4 year old trucks into competition or bring drivers back that gave up on the comp scene. It will open the door to guys 3D printing Pro chassis's that take shafty transmissions and more intimidation to the class. How are we suppose to attract new people to the sport when we have to give them 7 websites to use to build one truck? Is that the spirit of what the class was created for? Bringing real support from other manufacturers is not gonna happen either with something like this.

Leave the rules alone - don't make changes at events that only a small crowd of the community could go to, don't make changes because you think its gonna bring new people to events, focus on what you have now and build/promote off of it. Don't try to cram as much as you can into something when you cant even nail down simple things.


LOL sorry for my winded post .... at work trying to put things down in between sales calls. I missed most of what was in the other thread before it got hidden so I don't really know what else was mentioned besides leaving the rules alone and promoting the sport first.

[cboggs]

Promoting what we are doing now is the only way to bring attention to comp crawling, period. The way it is now we get no magazine coverage, really no mention in any kind of media that I've seen (not counting FaceBook as thats us individuals showing our stuff). How does the normal hobbiest know we exist? Answer is they don't. You want to grow, promotion is the key to bring the lime light back to us and just maybe we'll get manufacturers back in the game.

[Dezertdirt]

Originally Posted by cboggs

Promoting what we are doing now is the only way to bring attention to comp crawling, period. The way it is now we get no magazine coverage, really no mention in any kind of media that I've seen (not counting FaceBook as thats us individuals showing our stuff). How does the normal hobbiest know we exist? Answer is they don't. You want to grow, promotion is the key to bring the lime light back to us and just maybe we'll get manufacturers back in the game.

Good idea CBoggs. So how do we advertise comp crawling? Post flyers at hobby shops. create a comp crawler Facebook, twitter, Instagram page? Find a magazine to cover events? Start filming comps and post the videos everywhere, tapped-out has done a good job of this. Run promotional try it before you buy it comps? Just throwing out some ideas.

[cboggs]

That's the stuff each individual is doing now, Im referring to the main man in charge to promote the organization. What happened to all the media coverage we were supposed to have at Worlds? You cant take over and do nothing to promote, that's not helping to get the word out. If I did nothing to promote my business then I wouldn't be around very long. All major events or "qualifiers" should be getting coverage or have a spot to load media so the organization manager/owner can promote that event with it where ever he chose to do so, but it must be getting promoted.

[snapon boy]

I'm not a major player, but I just finished peiceing together a shafty. I stopped at my local hobby store for a few small items the owner asked what I was using the parts for I told him a shafty rig. The guy looked at me like I was green. I bought in my rig and he said he had never seen anything like it before. So like cboggs said some type of promoting could help.

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[Robbob]

Originally Posted by cboggs

That's the stuff each individual is doing now, Im referring to the main man in charge to promote the organization. What happened to all the media coverage we were supposed to have at Worlds? You cant take over and do nothing to promote, that's not helping to get the word out. If I did nothing to promote my business then I wouldn't be around very long. All major events or "qualifiers" should be getting coverage or have a spot to load media so the organization manager/owner can promote that event with it where ever he chose to do so, but it must be getting promoted.

RedRC.net is a good start

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[cboggs]

Originally Posted by snapon boy

I'm not a major player, but I just finished peiceing together a shafty. I stopped at my local hobby store for a few small items the owner asked what I was using the parts for I told him a shafty rig. The guy looked at me like I was green. I bought in my rig and he said he had never seen anything like it before. So like cboggs said some type of promoting could help.

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That's the response you'll get at 99.9% of the hobby shops around the US, they have no idea we even exist because its not sitting on the shelf behind them or read about it in the newest RC Car magazine.

[RcBro]

I took a break last year from traveling for several factors and it allowed me to really look at the hobby as a whole, and our comp crawling sector.

Those who think the rules are the problem are blind folded IMO. There will always be rules. The problem starts at a local level with not properly introducing new comers to the hobby. We are members and they way we treat them is what really helps keep the hobby in contact and growing. I don't think anyone needs a lessen on greeting people and helping. Lets just remember, we drive RC cars, no one is god and we are truly equal.

Access to information is horrible. As a vendor and a comp crawler I had no clue we even changed the rules this year. I found it by mistake. Is this RCORVA, RCCA, or USRCCA ? How the heck can a new person figure it out if a veteran cant?

Last years nats clearly showed an older "style" rig can win, and a sporty can be made fairly cheap. The argument of expensive and crazy rules is an easy blame. The blame needs to be put on all of us currently active in the hobby.

Event organization has been extremely lacking and we keep burning out those whom wanted or did do it. Stop putting the burden on one individual and instead be clubs again. National events should be very well ran, heavily staffed and fun for those taking the huge expense to participate in them. It should not be about how much money the event organizer can make, it should be about how epic the event was. I can honestly say the last really enjoyable out of state comp I went to was 4 years ago. We have a blast at our local level, it should be the same out of state.

As a vendor sponsoring a comp, I have almost 100% given up. The tax advantages aren't worth it and the advertisement is horrible. I get promised the moon and receive dust almost every time. I've tried cash, Large event checks for real money, products (both high and low value) and can never seem to get a single quality picture. Our podium finishers should all receive nice photos, and these balsa wood trophies have got to go! The bigger you hype the winners, the more people want to beat them next time. Bragging rights aint nothing if you don't even know who won the darn thing.

Scale is popular because someone 100% green can look at a scale truck and say hey thats cool. I'm going to buy it for $300 and drive it in my back yard. Thats how a majority get hooked. Same reason why they all buy Integy. Advertising and lack of info!!

Comp crawling isn't cool because it looks like it cost $3k, likely only crawls like my scx10 and I can't figure out how to build it. Collectively as a community, we need to promote the hobby. Pictures, properly ran events, how-to's, videos etc... No more of this, I'm better shes better, he gave me free stuff, he didn't so f him... take a month off, then come read this stuff. Its like an episode of days of our lifes.

We have a hobby shop about 3 hours south that opened up last year. They had no idea about crawling and filled there shelves with Gmade crawlers. I don't think anyone owned a crawler locally prior to this. They left some for rentals and stacked rock in front of the building. Allowed anyone to participate and were super nice and help educate the best they could. There monthly comps now hit 40 drivers and there bi-monthly hits 60-90 entries in less then 1 year!!! I see every brand and contraption you can think of. My local group went down there and joined the fun. We brought back about 15 trophies that day, (basically slaughtered them) but we helped educated everyone on why our rigs were so capable, allowed them to drive them and did it staying humble. They weren't mad we won because it was done respectfully and opened there eyes to the possibilities, we shot them with the crawler bug. We fill them with information, offered to help and have done so since our visit. I donated all my prize money back to the kids that day and made friends forever. The people make the hobby.

I got into crawling because I was tired of winning offroad and onroad races and being considered a dick for it. The fun atmosphere of crawling got me involved. Same reason most scale type events are so inviting. Comp crawling has gotten the offroad vibe each year. Only difference is the racing is still promoted!