2017 .... its coming and we need growth

[Robbob]

Gravedigger

Monster Energy or Carolina Crusher maybe

[ROWDY RACING]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Gravedigger

Monster Energy or Carolina Crusher maybe

Shut your whore mouth!

[WHITE-TRASH]

Pfft Max D or nothing.

[ROWDY RACING]

Originally Posted by WHITE-TRASH

Pfft Max D or nothing.

Knew you loved the D.

[WHITE-TRASH]

Originally Posted by ROWDY RACING

Knew you loved the D.

You had your hopes up I'm sure.

[CM9000]

or we could have a "ladder frame" class. and a "TVP" class. whatever size tire you want. wb at or below 12.5 track width at 11 or below.

has to have lexan body. front axle steer only. "box stock" class.

[BC-Brian]

We have done RWUB in the past and it works out ok, but we really see their eyes light up when we hand them the controller to a loaner rig and they see how much more capable it is.

I think there are some great ideas here that I have been talking about with people in the past. I think the sportsman level of Shafty is a fantastic Idea. It is not a separate class but run within the shafty class. It would be easily integrated into any comp format (club level or Nats level). It does require one important thing. Dedicated course designers that know how to build a course that will be completable by some number (lets say 50%+) of the sportsman level drivers while still being challenging for the Pro level Shafty (ProS) drivers. This sounds impossible..... but it isn't. Creating courses that have easy straddle lines for the sportsman drivers (though if they have to straddle every gate they will dnf at 4) and using bonuses to challenge the ProS, and not one stupid hard bonus gate, several gates that are like regular Shafty difficulty now. This allows everyone to have fun and get courses complete. Sportsman drivers may finish with a -2 or a +12, while the ProS may finish with a -26 or a -12. Make the bonus gates worth low points since there are many of them, this will also make the gape between Sportsman and ProS feel smaller.

We have been running this way for a while and it goes a long way to getting someone excited about crawling and keeping them interested. A driver who shows up and DNF's all the courses will only bang his head against the wall so long before they stop showing up. There are exceptions to this rule, and you can say "That's how I learned" and I would agree with you, that's how I learned too. I think a lot of the high level competitive drivers have that never give up mentality, but if we want to expand we need find a way for people that are different to drive their truck and leave excited to tell their friends about how much fun they had.

As for vehicle limitations, I don't think you need to be too restrictive to level the playing field.

Rig Weight Minimum of 5lbs.
No Cut and Shut tires.
Lexan body Required, 8 x 3 x 3"

As it has been said smart designers will still be able to make a better truck but it won't have nearly the competitive edge against an entry level rig that a current 2.2S rig would. If they want to use all CF and find a way to stash 14-18 ounces of weight somewhere then go right ahead.

A novice that wants to build a fancy rig can still compete at the ProS level, with a well designed course they will probably find themselves mid pack, able to do all the regular gates and maybe time to do 1 or 2 bonus gates.

If you are running in the Pro Shafty Level that event you cannot run in the sportsman level and vice versa. This does not preclude anyone from participating at any level, and it does not require a "Banned list" to be kept and distributed at each event (the idea of a no drive list doesn't really seem very inclusive to me).

My $0.02

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by BC-Brian

(the idea of a no drive list doesn't really seem very inclusive to me).

Its just to help aid against those Pro level drivers hunting for an easier win at big events. They would have to run the Pro level of registration but Novice would have the choice of one or the other levels of the class.

Dirt oval does this also ..... No former National Champions allowed in certain classes, they have to run the Mod levels. It really does work.

[CM9000]

it does really work. and dirt oval is fun too. no mater what class your in.

the same should go for crawling.

[BC-Brian]

I can't see a pro driver stepping down to compete in sportsman just so he can crush a bunch of new guys.

In all my years of racing i never saw a guy who was doing well in the "A Main" drop back just to crush the guys in the "B".

Just saying we might be policing a problem that doesn't exist, and i can see how telling people what class they can and can't run in might be a turn off.

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[WHITE-TRASH]

Originally Posted by BC-Brian

I can't see a pro driver stepping down to compete in sportsman just so he can crush a bunch of new guys.

In all my years of racing i never saw a guy who was doing well in the "A Main" drop back just to crush the guys in the "B".

Just saying we might be policing a problem that doesn't exist, and i can see how telling people what class they can and can't run in might be a turn off.

What about having the rule in place but optional? Or use a protest system to let drivers self police themselves perhaps?


It's tough for sure, as much of a dick move a sand bagger could be it's tough to get a grip on such an instance cleanly and easily. I feel that simplicity should be what this whole potential new class is based on.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by BC-Brian

I can't see a pro driver stepping down to compete in sportsman just so he can crush a bunch of new guys.

In all my years of racing i never saw a guy who was doing well in the "A Main" drop back just to crush the guys in the "B".

Just saying we might be policing a problem that doesn't exist, and i can see how telling people what class they can and can't run in might be a turn off.

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It might be policing something that isn't there but I can guarantee it would get exploited if it wasn't.

It was never in the rules for shafty that MOA axles couldn't be used, it was just assumed they wouldn't/couldn't and look where that took us.

I wouldn't think of it as telling someone what class they can and cant run .... sure it might take a full season to really trim the lists but its simple to start. Its helping keep a level playing field for new drivers and still giving the Pros their own group of peers to play with.

No Past National Champions. No Past National Qualifier type events winners. No past Worlds winners.

Best example I can give to why I believe in the list. When the class was born I said the same thing. It was promoted as a class new drivers could compete in and not feel like they had to buy all this MOA stuff. Bring new competitors and winners to events. I said it then about the list but take someone like Austin who back then was how many time National Champion? With a Shaft rig against MOA's and let him drive in the 2.2S class. How competitive is a new driver, even a year old driver gonna feel knowing hes going up against a (3 time?) National Champ?

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by WHITE-TRASH

I feel that simplicity should be what this whole potential new class is based on.

Keep the exploits out before they can happen and discourage new drivers.

[WHITE-TRASH]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Keep the exploits out before they can happen and discourage new drivers.

Overly complicated rules are a big turn off and pain in the backside to decipher most of the time. You want to attract new noobies then follow the K.I.S.S. principles.

[BC-Brian]

Austin driving his pro shafty in the the 2.2s class Happened because his rig satisfied the rules.

The question is, why would Austin have joined the Sportsman level when the 2.2ProS level existed.

If he had I would have ridiculed the hell out of him.

Helping prevent this could be celebrating the victory in the levels differently. I still can't see a Pro driver competing at the Sportsman level, there is nothing to gain except flak from other pro drivers.

You might have a problem if you start paying out the Sportsman podium finishers but i can't see that happen.

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[CM9000]

well... this is new to me...

pro shafty class? pro modified class?

sportsman modified class? sportsman shafty class?


is it coming to this????

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by BC-Brian

Austin driving his pro shafty in the the 2.2s class Happened because his rig satisfied the rules.

The question is, why would Austin have joined the Sportsman level when the 2.2ProS level existed.

If he had I would have ridiculed the hell out of him.

Helping prevent this could be celebrating the victory in the levels differently. I still can't see a Pro driver competing at the Sportsman level, there is nothing to gain except flak from other pro drivers.

You might have a problem if you start paying out the Sportsman podium finishers but i can't see that happen.

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What would stop a driver of that ability from running the death out of the class? Being ridiculed?

Whats to stop a new driver thats been putting the effort and practice like pro drivers and became good in his first year from running away with the class year after year? What moves him up if he doesn't decide he wants to?

How do you label him as a pro driver and ridicule him if hes only been doing it for 2 years vs the guys who been doing it 5 years and haven't won a major title who you would ridicule?

I can see where we would like to think drivers would be honorable enough to choose the right class for their skill level. Where they would not choose to sandbag. In a perfect world ..... we wouldn't need rules.

But for me, seeing where the 2.2S class has evolved to compared to where it came from I believe new blood would try it more if they felt on a more even playing field.

Originally Posted by CM9000

well... this is new to me...
pro shafty class? pro modified class?
sportsman modified class? sportsman shafty class?
is it coming to this????

Nope, Nothing wrong with Mod ....... Want to play with the big dogs that's the place to do it in my eyes. Want to dabble in the puppy pen before diving in full force? Lets play in the novice side of shafty and see if its for us?

[BC-Brian]

Originally Posted by CM9000

well... this is new to me...

pro shafty class? pro modified class?

sportsman modified class? sportsman shafty class?


is it coming to this????

In my opinion we need to keep in mind that it is less of a new class than it is a new competition level.

I think the rules structure between comp levels could be very similar.

Rob,

Maybe your right about the sandbaggers and reluctant graduates, but maybe there is a way to do it that dies not require upkeep of a forbidden drivers list distributed world wide...

Is there a way too incentivize the Pro shafty level to encourage them to compete at the appropriate level?

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[WHITE-TRASH]

Originally Posted by Robbob

What would stop a driver of that ability from running the death out of the class? Being ridiculed?

Whats to stop a new driver thats been putting the effort and practice like pro drivers and became good in his first year from running away with the class year after year? What moves him up if he doesn't decide he wants to?

How do you label him as a pro driver and ridicule him if hes only been doing it for 2 years vs the guys who been doing it 5 years and haven't won a major title who you would ridicule?

I can see where we would like to think drivers would be honorable enough to choose the right class for their skill level. Where they would not choose to sandbag. In a perfect world ..... we wouldn't need rules.

But for me, seeing where the 2.2S class has evolved to compared to where it came from I believe new blood would try it more if they felt on a more even playing field.

Is there not a points system already in place? Find your split point for moving out of novice over a period of the 3 previous events. If you're consistent you'll move up or stay down.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by BC-Brian

In my opinion we need to keep in mind that it is less of a new class than it is a new competition level.

I think the rules structure between comp levels could be very similar.

Rob,

Maybe your right about the sandbaggers and reluctant graduates, but maybe there is a way to do it that dies not require upkeep of a forbidden drivers list distributed world wide...

Is there a way too incentivize the Pro shafty level to encourage them to compete at the appropriate level?

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Could be ...... Ideas to what we could do?

Excel sheet -> cntrl+F -> driver name
List is simple, you're just looking at past winners posted.

Originally Posted by WHITE-TRASH

Is there not a points system already in place? Find your split point for moving out of novice over a period of the 3 previous events. If you're consistent you'll move up or stay down.

??? Points series, like the old Championship they use to do? Something like that could work too. And be a nice way to recognize drivers too?