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Old 03-06-2009, 05:44 AM   #1
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Default the gate debate

I noticed there was a lot of talk about gate penalties, more specific the straddle.

I have a few examples from a recent comp that i would like to get some opinions on to see how others interpret the rules.

If you were the judge, what would you're call be on these runs?

example 1

The gate to the left of the screen, on top of the rock, proceeds towards the camera, the gate to the right proceeds away from the camera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jaspg...e=channel_page

example 2

This is the same lower gate in the first vid. the gate was already cleared as the driver was proceeding to the next gate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz4on...eature=channel

example 3

This on is pretty self explanatory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUukc...eature=channel

I would like to hear some of you're opinions first then i will reveal the actual comp result later
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Old 03-06-2009, 06:07 AM   #2
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No gate no penalty.
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Old 03-06-2009, 06:37 AM   #3
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Example 1 Not a straddle, but a TOUGH judge could say Rule 7.2.4 was violated .

7.2.4 - The first time through any un-cleared gate must be in the intended direction and in the correct
sequence of the course layout until that gate is cleared.


Rule 7.2.5 does specifically mention intentionally, but that gate appears to be the next gate in sequence.

• 7.2.5 - You cannot attempt any un-cleared gates out of sequence. If you intentionally enter an un-cleared
gate out of sequence you will receive a DNF for that course.


The intent of both of those rule are to prevent drivers from going around obsticles. This clearly was not the intent of the driver in Example 1. If I were judging I would probably NOT call it.





Example 2
Clearly No Gate Penelty

Example 3
Clearly No Gate Penelty with a 1x reverse

Last edited by Fishmaxx; 03-06-2009 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 03-06-2009, 08:00 AM   #4
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Example #1. This is not a straddle because it was not in the right direction. The judge could call a penelty because the truck did not go through the gate in the correct direction on the first pass through the gate. I would of not called a penelty because all the guys that I comp with in my home town are just there to have fun. But if a major comp, I am sure the gate penelty for wronge direction would be counted.

Example #2. No penelty.

Example #3. Just the reverse penelty.

I hope this helps, I would like to know the out come of your comp.
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Old 03-06-2009, 09:18 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 70duncan View Post
Example #1. This is not a straddle because it was not in the right direction. The judge could call a penelty because the truck did not go through the gate in the correct direction on the first pass through the gate. I would of not called a penelty because all the guys that I comp with in my home town are just there to have fun. But if a major comp, I am sure the gate penelty for wronge direction would be counted.

Example #2. No penelty.

Example #3. Just the reverse penelty.

I hope this helps, I would like to know the out come of your comp.

Example 1 would be no penalty...Nothing touched the gate and as far as wrong direction only one wheel goes through so that is not a cleared gate so how could it be considered clearing a gate out of sequence or wrong direction...

Example 2 agree
example 3 agree
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Old 03-06-2009, 03:20 PM   #6
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1# No penalty (the gate wasnt progressed in the wrong direction either)

2# No penalty (the gate wasnt progressed either)

3# Just the reverse, no gate penalty (also no progress)


This is about as close as you can get eithout getting a gate penalty. I timed out trying to get out of this gate but i never got a gate for it.
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Old 03-06-2009, 03:45 PM   #7
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Example 1 Gate

No gate was touched and you did not progress through the gate(so you do not get a DNF) because only 1 tire crossed the plane. But rule 1,5 states a penalty is given when all 4 wheels do not travel between the gate.

Example 2 No penalty

The gate was already cleared, so as long as you do not touch a marker you are good.


Example 3 Gate and Reverse

The tires are clearly on the ground and the gate is between the tires therefore not all 4 wheels traveled through the gate.

Last edited by renoirbud; 03-06-2009 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:04 PM   #8
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I do not see how example 3 could be a gate?

I think atleast from the angle of the camera that he never even broke plain much less get the gate.

I would say he would just have to drive around and attempt the gate again.
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:06 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joesbruiser View Post
I do not see how example 3 could be a gate?

I think atleast from the angle of the camera that he never even broke plain much less get the gate.

I would say he would just have to drive around and attempt the gate again.

Agree
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:21 PM   #10
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This rule could be easily be cleared up by just saying any time you touch or go over a gate marker by any means in any direction you get a gate penalty. This way all rulings will be simple and uniform, with out discretion. The way things are now there are many different opinions. Use the KISS method and make it simple for all. Touch or proceed over a gate marker in and way it's a gate penalty.
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:25 PM   #11
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See I view it different than JIA's Dad I think it should be you have to touch the gate to get called.And all 4 tires through to get progress.
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:28 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joesbruiser View Post
I do not see how example 3 could be a gate?

I would say he would just have to drive around and attempt the gate again.
AGREED

Quote:
Originally Posted by JIA's Dad View Post
This rule could be easily be cleared up by just saying any time you touch or go over a gate marker by any means in any direction you get a gate penalty. This way all rulings will be simple and uniform, with out discretion. The way things are now there are many different opinions. Use the KISS method and make it simple for all. Touch or proceed over a gate marker in and way it's a gate penalty.
If I am reading your suggestion all 3 examples would be called a gate penelty, and I don't think thats going to happen.
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:29 PM   #13
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If you would have asked me a month ago, I would say no gate for all of them. But then fish told me to read rule 1.5.

I really think the only way to judge these situations is, either you touch the gate or not. But that is not the way the rules are writen.
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:31 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joesbruiser View Post
See I view it different than JIA's Dad I think it should be you have to touch the gate to get called.And all 4 tires through to get progress.

That is a great way of wording it. That should be a rule.
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:37 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joesbruiser View Post
See I view it different than JIA's Dad I think it should be you have to touch the gate to get called.And all 4 tires through to get progress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by renoirbud View Post
That is a great way of wording it. That should be a rule.
I agree 100%.
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:41 PM   #16
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Damn I may have opened another can of worms all together.
Sorry rules guys.
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:44 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renoirbud View Post
If you would have asked me a month ago, I would say no gate for all of them. But then fish told me to read rule 1.5.
True, but the gate wasn't cleared so the driver could ATTEMPT the gate again.
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:53 PM   #18
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Default is this the beggining of the end?

How are these grey areas gonna be handled and who is the deciding factor? I have seen people clear gates 3 ft off the ground by jumping them and was rulled progress. I have seen guys back thru gates with the front tires spinning forward as the truck went down the hill backwards. Who can we depend on to do the right thing?? They say all is far in competition but in the end who is gonna lose. We are!! honesty should start with the drivers and most who make mistakes know when they are in the wrong..
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Old 03-06-2009, 05:02 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbj069 View Post
How are these grey areas gonna be handled and who is the deciding factor? I have seen people clear gates 3 ft off the ground by jumping them and was rulled progress. I have seen guys back thru gates with the front tires spinning forward as the truck went down the hill backwards. Who can we depend on to do the right thing?? They say all is far in competition but in the end who is gonna lose. We are!! honesty should start with the drivers and most who make mistakes know when they are in the wrong..
Any grey areas are decided by the judge on course. If you are judging at any time you could be reading this section constantly.

The judge on course can make a call on a gate or specific instance as long as it is consistent with what he called other drivers for (pity the judge who doesnt, lol).

Clubs can also adjust the rules as needed, for example, most i have run with do NOT use the 20pt pass rule.

As with any competitive endeavor there will always be those who get a tender backside when they get called for a penalty. Its just the nature of competition.
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Old 03-06-2009, 05:21 PM   #20
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well I am with ya on that , its just I have been in the hobby about 20 years and the grey areas are the ones that tend to split the crowd and the clubs and usually kill the sport. Not trying to intimidate just trying to make a statement.
If rules are clear and consise and are not allowed to be bent then the playing field is set. The ones who want to bend them or try the rules are the ones that need to be penalized. As far as the judges having to be the last word I feel that using all the judges to make the call would be better.
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