Judged Roll Overs - Let's discuss why?

[Nova's Ark]

The 5 point roll over ruling should be addressed in my opinion. I understand why the judge must watch the competitor when performing a 5 point roll over to ensure the competitor does not change the vehicle line direction. In doing so, we have one human judging another human on a rather simple procedure, but the reality is that line selection is crucial and a roll over does offer an opportunity to modify a vehicles position with human hands.

Would modifying the rule to returning the vehicle to the last gate cleared when the vehicle cannot right itself seem logical?

Keep the same 5 point penalty, but no "judging" on the roll over. Comp time keeps running, competitor picks up vehicle, returns it to last gate clear or start line, and attempts again.

What are your thoughts?

[Hardline]

I don't think the clock should remain running. There's no control over how far back or how awkward the last gate might be to get to.
Option 1. Same as yours, but stop the clock
Option 2. Just disallow the roll over. If he can't right it he does a reposition just like any other "stuck".
Option 3. Leave rule as is except judge performs the attempted roll-over, one time, direction of driver's choosing. Driver can't touch car. Judge stops time to get to the car (when driver asks for roll over), restarts at motion.

[Solitaire]

I don't see any problem with the rule as it is. Everything in comp crawling is "one human judging another human" and there's a lot tougher calls than a rollover.

If a driver wants to throw his truck back onto it's wheels in an attempt to gain an advantage, (which is very easy to see) it's a 10 pt touch and a repo.

[tapped-out]

Leave rollover rule as is. By making a driver move his rig back to last gate progressed could cost him/her a DNF.
IMO rule doesn't need to be rewritten.

[crawlinghulls]

I say leave it as is. As a club we review the rollover procedure during the drivers meeting before starting the comp.

[JohnRobHolmes]

It's good to have this discussion, the rollover issue has been a tough rule to enforce fairly since the beginning and has had its share of changes. The biggest reason I see and hear against clubs starting comp crawling is the complexity of judging, and if clubs have to review rollovers at ever comp just to ensure its done right...


I would say a reposition at the gate could be an effective method.

[Nova's Ark]

True comp crawling discussion... Good times :-)

Lots of good points already.

One thing to point out, human hands are being used to turnover the truck, is that not a touch?
Why the 5 point rollover touch instead of a 10 point touch, repair, reposition?




..Uploaded from the lab @ the C.I. Compound...

[JohnRobHolmes]

While we are talking about repos, I think any repositioning should be done by the competitor in a manner where some portion of the vehicle is in the gate plane. The bizness of putting the rear axles square with the gate isn't always how a rig needs to line up for the next gate. They already made it through once, should be able to repo as needed to make the next gate possible.

[Solitaire]

I agree on the repo. The truck is not always stable if the rear axle is in line with the gate markers. I think as long as one tire is inline with the gate, that should be good to go. As JRH mentioned, the truck has already cleared that particular gate.

Getting back to rollovers...if it's that tough for judges to determine a proper rollover, then let the judge handle that procedure.

[Solitaire]

Originally Posted by Nova's Ark

...One thing to point out, human hands are being used to turnover the truck, is that not a touch?
Why the 5 point rollover touch instead of a 10 point touch, repair, reposition?

Yes, it is a touch, but the rule has allowed this particular touch as being a semi-minor infraction. It being only a 5 point penalty has surely saved a lot of us from a DNF. Plus, it's the only touch that doesn't stop the clock, which in itself is a bit of a penalty as well.

[Hittman]

Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes

While we are talking about repos, I think any repositioning should be done by the competitor in a manner where some portion of the vehicle is in the gate plane. The bizness of putting the rear axles square with the gate isn't always how a rig needs to line up for the next gate. They already made it through once, should be able to repo as needed to make the next gate possible.

Wish I could "like" this more than once!!! This is a huge topic IMO, and it's a big topic in my local club. I have seen people, locally and nationally, get screwed over because of how they were "repositioned" at the last progressed gate.
It's a hard topic to change however, where do you draw the line of what's acceptable? Any angle with whole rear of truck behind the gate plane? Any angle with only one rear tire behind the gate plane? What if the vehicle can't stay in that "progressed" position and has to be placed all the way behind the gate?

I know everyone try's to keep it as fair for all the drivers, but I have seen a lot of different judging styles. You can make rule after rule about how a judge or driver should do something, but when does it become too much and just interferes with the fact that all this is for fun?

[JohnRobHolmes]

There shouldn't be a case where a truck couldn't be positioned with stability within the gate somehow, otherwise it's not a possible gate to begin with!

[Hittman]

We have had gates that were "un-repositionable" here locally.
Ie. A side hill gate where you have to go through a series of burns and digs to get through. Tough, but doable. When repositioning a vehicle back to that gate, it won't stay because at full sprung, the cog is too high up now to stay on the rock.
Another example would be a drop through gate. Say there is a 6' drop off and the gate is 3' from the ground. The rig progressed the gate clean but has to be repositioned after clearing it. The rock is too steep to set the rig at the gate. What would happen there? Set the driver at the top of the rock? Possiblility of them tumbling off the rock the second time down?

Lots of situations where repositioning can get iffy. The question is do we make specific rules on repositioning, or leave it up to the judges discretion?

[JohnRobHolmes]

Yes, those would be two cases where it wasnt possible to repo in the gate. Judges discretion would work, allow the closest position to the gate possible, or have a dedicated repo area.

Tricky moa rigs ruining my simple thinking.

[Solitaire]

The rules pretty well cover a repo...

"The vehicle is moved back by the driver to the previously cleared gate with the rear axle aligned to that gate. If the vehicle cannot be aligned to the gate due to course design, the judge will reposition the vehicle to the next stable location after the cleared gate. This location will be used by all drivers."

Fairly straightforward.

[Jslick]

I have not personally seen a need to change the rule. If the rollover is not successful (does not settle) or done improperly it should be a touch repo.

[TURBOFEST]

There is nothing wrong with any of these rules as they are written now....

[Nova's Ark]

I guess the rules are so well written that comp crawling will grow then. Y'all know what's best. Look how far we've come and fallen.


..Uploaded from the lab @ the C.I. Compound...

[JohnRobHolmes]

Originally Posted by TURBOFEST

There is nothing wrong with any of these rules as they are written now....

Nothing wrong with them from a competitors point of view that has been through it all, right? How about a new club that is interested in comp crawling but doesn't have anybody familiar with anything but scale? I've got about 30 people within a 1.5 hour radius that have never even seen a comp rig or ran comp gates, nor do they want to because the judging is "too complicated". If I don't run it, it don't happen. And I haven't run one in years, can't get free weekends like I used to.

But the guys down at the lake of the Ozarks are hosting trail runs every week or two when the weather is good. But they still can't get past all the minutia of judging a RCCA comp.

[JohnRobHolmes]

Originally Posted by TURBOFEST

There is nothing wrong with any of these rules as they are written now....

Nothing wrong with them from a competitors point of view that has been through it all, right? How about a new club that is interested in comp crawling but doesn't have anybody familiar with anything but scale? I've got about 30 people within a 1.5 hour radius that have never even seen a comp rig or ran comp gates, nor do they want to because the judging is "too complicated". If I don't run it, it don't happen. And I haven't run one in years, can't get free weekends like I used to.

But the guys down at the lake of the Ozarks are hosting trail runs every week or two when the weather is good, and they still can't get past all the minutia of judging a RCCA comp.