2013 Rules

[EvilTwin v2]

As soon as you hit 40 points, you're done. You stop where you are, turn your truck off and let the next guy go.

When on course, while you mark your progress and bonus points, only the penalty points are calculated during the run itself. We no longer use the optional 20 point rule. We found that people felt more comfortable scoring if they didn't have to constantly be keeping track of the number of points on each gate. This resulted in more people helping at our comps which meant less stress for the guys who had been doing it all before.

A well designed course and the experienced guys coaching will eliminate the necessity of the 20 point rule for new drivers.

 

[Olle P]

Bonus point do NOT effect your score unless you finish.

Ie: even if you have cleared 10 bonus gates BUT you point out or time out on course those bonus points are null and void. ...

Checking further I see I'm a bit unclear in my previous post.
The "bonus points" i refer to are strictly progress bonus for the mandatory gates (rule 1.10), not "bonus gates" (rule 4.9).

1.10 - Progress bonus (-2 progress point): shall be awarded to drivers for each gate after it has been cleared during the attempt of a course. All gate penalties are assessed and given before a progress bonus is awarded. ... Once a driver has pointed out, no further Progress points will be awarded.

- I see no reason to withdraw bonus points awarded before pointing out (for each gate cleared).
- I can buy that no bonus points are given for the gate where the point limit is reached, if it's reached when progressing a gate.
_______________________

Also, alternate gates (as by rule 4.10), what are they good for?
If I understand it correctly the driver can choose to go for a primary or an alternate/secondary gate, but not both. (Otherwise they wouldn't be "alternate".)
Do alternate gates give you a different progress bonus when cleared, or is there another reason to go that route?

 

[Hardline]

Yes you keep all progress points earned before pointing or timing out. But note you don't receive those points until they're tallied at the end. Point being the accumulated progress points don't help you stay under the 40-point DNF level because they're not credited to you until the end of your run. If you hit a marker while taking a gate and that penalty puts you past 40, you will not receive progress points for that gate as you didn't get past it before DNF'ing.

But I am confused here...if you straddle/take a gate putting you past 40 -- and straddling is no longer a penalty this year -- it seems your progress and DNF happen a the same time. (You still get a gate penalty for not getting four tires through.) So I would think you would get progress points for that last gate given you've straddled the marker and not hit it.

So what do you guys say? You've got 30 points and straddle gate 6 with both axles. I say you now get progress for gate 6 because there was no penalty until you progressed that gate without 4-tires thru. Seems like you now get to keep those final progress points for a score of 28. If you had touched the marker while getting progress your score would have been 30.

 

[BC-Brian]

Also worth noting is that if you get 24 points and you are using the 20 pt rule for no progress, you still keep the 24 points for that gate and continue, you dont scrub off the extra 4 points, they stay.

 

[EvilTwin v2]

The straddle rule may no longer be in place, but you still have to get all 4 tires cleanly through the gate to be awarded progress with no penalty.

 

[EvilTwin v2]

Checking further I see I'm a bit unclear in my previous post.
The "bonus points" i refer to are strictly progress bonus for the mandatory gates (rule 1.10), not "bonus gates" (rule 4.9).

1.10 - Progress bonus (-2 progress point): shall be awarded to drivers for each gate after it has been cleared during the attempt of a course. All gate penalties are assessed and given before a progress bonus is awarded. ... Once a driver has pointed out, no further Progress points will be awarded.

- I see no reason to withdraw bonus points awarded before pointing out (for each gate cleared).
- I can buy that no bonus points are given for the gate where the point limit is reached, if it's reached when progressing a gate.
_______________________

Also, alternate gates (as by rule 4.10), what are they good for?
If I understand it correctly the driver can choose to go for a primary or an alternate/secondary gate, but not both. (Otherwise they wouldn't be "alternate".)
Do alternate gates give you a different progress bonus when cleared, or is there another reason to go that route?

I think you're confusing terms. Progress Bonus refers to the points awarded for progressing a normal (not a bonus) gate. These points are only calculated into the score once the driver is done (whether due to completing the course, running out of time, or receiving 40 penalty points). During this time, once you receive a penalty point, nothing deducts penalty points while the driver is on course.

As for wanting to keep bonus points, that falls under rule 4.9, specifically 4.9.2:

4.9 - Bonus (Optional): Bonuses are extra gates placed anywhere on the course by course designers for bonus credit.
▪ 4.9.1 - All penalties apply during the bonus attempt to the regular score even if the bonus is not completed or aborted.
▪ 4.9.2 - Course must be completed in order for bonus to be awarded.
▪ 4.9.3 - Bonus may consist of more than one gate.
▪ 4.9.4 - Bonus Gates are ran in the intended sequence set by the course designer.

As for alternate gates, it's just another way for a course designer to be creative in the course layout, allowing a driver the choice of an easy line to get progress or they can choose the alternate "Bonus" gate.

 

[Hardline]

The straddle rule may no longer be in place, but you still have to get all 4 tires cleanly through the gate to be awarded progress with no penalty.

Yeah but I think you missed my point. If you point out while hitting a gate you're done and get no progress for that final gate you hit.

But if you point out by taking a gate with a two-axle straddle, there is no gate penalty awarded until you progress. Before that point you could back up and try again. Once you progress, yes you take a gate penalty for not putting four tires through, but now you should get to keep the progress points for that last gate.

If you don't understand what I'm saying, maybe someone else will.

 

[helhedded]

Yeah but I think you missed my point. If you point out while hitting a gate you're done and get no progress for that final gate you hit.

But if you point out by taking a gate with a two-axle straddle, there is no gate penalty awarded until you progress. Before that point you could back up and try again. Once you progress, yes you take a gate penalty for not putting four tires through, but now you should get to keep the progress points for that last gate.

If you don't understand what I'm saying, maybe someone else will.

I understand what you're saying. This happens a lot, especially when the last gate is super tough or when a driver is running out of time.

-Driver attempts a gate with 30 penalty points
-Driver makes progress but without getting 4 tires through
-gate penalty and progress awarded
-40 point out.

Yes they happen at the same time, but one can't happen without the other. Driver can not be awarded progress without making it through, and a gate penalty can't be called when the driver is just half way in without touching the gate.

 

[Hardline]

-gate penalty AND PROGRESS awarded.

"thumbsup" thanks

 

[JeremyH]

-gate penalty and progress awarded

I was asking about this earlier in this thread. I've always thought that the penalty was acquired BEFORE progress can be awarded....

That's why I was asking for clarification on that issue earlier...

 

[Hardline]

I was asking about this earlier in this thread. I've always thought that the penalty was acquired BEFORE progress can be awarded.....

But if the judge hasn't called progress...and you haven't touched anything....aren't you free to just back up and try again? So the progress has to occur before the "take" penalty can be applied.

 

[JeremyH]

But if the judge hasn't called progress...and you haven't touched anything....aren't you free to just back up and try again? So the progress has to occur before the "take" penalty can be applied.

You've got me! That's exactly what I was asking about here:
http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/rules/420729-2013-rules-10.html#post4263494

 

[Hardline]

My belief is there is no totally right answer because the rules are inconsistent and incomplete in this area. This is the area where words were removed recently because there were other inconsistencies. As I recall, fishmaxx said that the committee would have to address the problem.

Like you (I think), I don't know at exactly what point a progress should be called after a double straddle. Because the wording that said after the vehicle "clears the gate" have been removed and nothing put in their place. But if I'm the judge, I wouldn't say the driver can't back up and try again until the entire car has passed the entire gate and I call progress. That's just me -- I can't prove it by the rules. Maybe straddle should go back to being a penalty. That would clear things up.

 

[JeremyH]

My belief is there is no totally right answer because the rules are inconsistent and incomplete in this area.

Agreed.

Like you (I think), I don't know at exactly what point a progress should be called after a double straddle.

And again....agreed.

 

[helhedded]

I was asking about this earlier in this thread. I've always thought that the penalty was acquired BEFORE progress can be awarded....

That's why I was asking for clarification on that issue earlier...

I don't remember the rules ever stating this.. did they? or maybe the way the rules used to be written made it easy to think this?

I'm just looking at the main rules of clearing a gate and making progress.

4 have to be through for it to be a clean progress

If the rig doesn't make all 4 through it's gate and progress.

Am I a simpleton?

 

[JeremyH]

If the rig doesn't make all 4 through it's gate and progress.

Agreed. I was just asking earlier when that gate penalty was actually applied....because in certain situations, it matters.

Am I a simpleton?

"thumbsup"

 

[ROWDY RACING]

I don't remember the rules ever stating this.. did they? or maybe the way the rules used to be written made it easy to think this?

I'm just looking at the main rules of clearing a gate and making progress.

4 have to be through for it to be a clean progress

If the rig doesn't make all 4 through it's gate and progress.

Am I a simpleton?

Agreed! You are not a simpleton at all, some just have to over analyze everything and turn it into a debate!

Not talking aboot JeremyH.

 

[EvilTwin v2]

Maybe it needs better wording to remove the gray. However, if the gate would point you out, and the penalty occurs before progress can be awarded, penalty, no progress.

 

[JeremyH]

Maybe it needs better wording to remove the gray. However, if the gate would point you out, and the penalty occurs before progress can be awarded, penalty, no progress.

That's what I dont understand.......I need to know when, specifically, does the penalty happen. Before OR after the progress is awarded. I realize that technically they happen at the same time, however, a judge needs to be able to call one before the other to avoid instances like what we are discussing here.

 

[EvilTwin v2]

That's what I dont understand.......I need to know when, specifically, does the penalty happen. Before OR after the progress is awarded. I realize that technically they happen at the same time, however, a judge needs to be able to call one before the other to avoid instances like what we are discussing here.

Here's the thing, you cannot get progress on a gate if you're over 40 points. You cannot progress a gate without penalty if don't get all 4 tires cleanly through. If the person were to back out and try again and get it cleanly, there would be no penalty. However, you cannot get progress if you're over 40 points. This scenario would put the driver at or over 40 points. This is a gray area that hasn't come up previously, but will surely be addressed now.