Best brushless vs Best Brushed setup for comp crawling - money is no object

[quark]

Speaking purely 540 sized stuff and sensored brushless vs brush with no money objective, what do people like? Please, only chime in if you have had both. I've ran brushed in other rc's and in the last 6 or so years, I've ditched all my brush and switched to brushless. There was no comparison for maintenance, longevity, reliability, and speed. I run a scx10.2 scaler and see guys run both and I'm baffled why folks still run a brushed motor. Also baffled at why there are $100 dedicated brushed motors.

 

[Prime]

It depends on the truck imho. I have two Class 2 SCX10s that are built differently. One runs a Holmes 2200 Stubby with a Micro X and the other runs a second hand AE5 with a 27T brushed motor. Both Run 3S. My brushless one is set up for trail style comps and excels at those, the brushless set up is perfect for that. The other is for when the comp takes place on rocks, then the brushed set up (in conjunction with the truck's setup) works better. It really comes down to driver preference, what kind of rig, terrain, and such, there really is no one size fits all answer for this question.

 

[Brlowe]

When running brushless in a 1/10 crawler with a 2 speed trans what would be the a good KV motor to get?
I'm now to this so still figuring things out.
Am I right in assuming a low KV motor like 2200KV give you better crawling power and something like a 3700KV giver you faster speeds?
Will the 2200kv stay cooler when crawling?
With a 2 speed trans can you get higher top speeds when wanted?

 

[LSXGMC]

In my scale trucks, I typically don't drive on flat land or do any kind of speed, so brushed is cheap, I have no need for extra power brushless can provide, and maintenance isn't really an issue with a cheap motor. In my Bomber, I wanted speed, and with the motor running at higher RPM's most of the time, it made sense to go brushless.

 

[dna4engr]

When running brushless in a 1/10 crawler with a 2 speed trans what would be the a good KV motor to get?
I'm now to this so still figuring things out.
Am I right in assuming a low KV motor like 2200KV give you better crawling power and something like a 3700KV giver you faster speeds?
Will the 2200kv stay cooler when crawling?
With a 2 speed trans can you get higher top speeds when wanted?

Something in the 2200 to 3300 is a good start for a 2 speed. Allows you to use a smaller pinion if you go with the higher kv . The whole intent of the 2 speed is to get higher speed when shifting gears. or have a "fast" speed that's your normal and shift down for slower speeds. However, most 2 speed trans out there have a very low 1st speed so people use that and shift up for speed.
No question on a 2 speed you should use a brushless motor. Simply because at the higher gear at high speeds, if you face any load (like hills, mud, snow) it is too much for the brushes on a normal brushed motor to take. Most 4 pole brushless motors don't break too much of a sweat but get warm.

Yes, in general a lower kv brushless is good for crawling vs. a higher kv. However most of this can be handled with trans and axle gearing. For example. I have a Tekin Roc412 in 2300kv and 3100kv. I've put them both in the same rig, but changed the gearing to get the same wheel speed (56/9 for 3100 and 56/12 for 2300). Both crawled equally well, however the 3100 got a lot hotter under extended duration at full speed. I was surprised due to the gearing. This is all on 3S in a pretty heavy 2.2 scaler.
On the other side, I run a 3300kv HH Trailmaster Pro (2 pole, not the 4 pole pullers) geared at 56/12 in a 1.9 scaler. This motor stays perfectly cool and has all the top speed I could use. Plus it crawls buttery smooth. My point is that you can make most motors from say 1800-3500kv crawl really well if you handle gearing well. BTW - these were all run with MMP escs.



Getting back to the OP question. I run combinations of both brushed and brushless motors.

I agree with one poster that all my trail/g6/ttc rigs are brushless. All my scale comp rigs and sporty/mod rigs are brushed.

I used to run brushless in my scale comp rigs as I only had a couple, but as my garage has proliferated, I have the luxury of multiple rigs now.

Brushless worked fine for comps but lacked drag brake like a brushed motor. This is an advantage on a steep decent when you are going face first as the truck will slowly drive right down the hill (even with the MMP set to full drag). I've owned half a dozen brushless motors for crawling and none of them can hold drag brake like a brushed motor. Yes they will do an endo when you let off throttle from high speed, but in a steep crawl, they don't hold. On an up hill when you are trying to maneuver to a gate, if you let off throttle a little it rolls back a little and you have a reverse penalty. The brushed rigs I run in comps now all have HH BRXL so I get the holmes hold function on the drag brake. Plus as long as the tires are holding, the truck doesn't roll back. I run these brushed trucks on 4S lipo to get the wheel speed when I need it. Maintenance is just sending them in for rebuild once a year.
Lastly, there is a benefit to startup on brushed motors, no matter how good of a brushless setup you have. It's those times when trying to enter or get through a gate at a true snails pace, you realize the benefit.

If you have 1 truck and you plan to comp and run G6/TTC/Trail events, go brushless.

If you have the luxury to have more trucks, mix it up.

On the question of $100 motors. No big surprise to me. I run some HH pro motors and Brood motors worth $70-100 new. I just keep rebuilding them. Some of the serious comp guys get special motors from brood or HH that are $250 plus for a brushed motor. These will exceed the speed and torque of a lot of brushless motors...until the brushes wear out :mrgreen:

 

[mikemcE]

Hard to follow after all of that.
On my crawlers I prefer brushless sensored. Beautiful slow take off and plenty of wheel speed when needed.
I also runa Bullyll MOA brushed run thru BRMD and controlled by my Futaba. I can walk straight up and down, lock either axle and have a proportional throttle mix to slow my rear axle way down as needed.


Hang up and Drive

 

[quark]

Something in the 2200 to 3300 is a good start for a 2 speed. Allows you to use a smaller pinion if you go with the higher kv . The whole intent of the 2 speed is to get higher speed when shifting gears. or have a "fast" speed that's your normal and shift down for slower speeds. However, most 2 speed trans out there have a very low 1st speed so people use that and shift up for speed.
No question on a 2 speed you should use a brushless motor. Simply because at the higher gear at high speeds, if you face any load (like hills, mud, snow) it is too much for the brushes on a normal brushed motor to take. Most 4 pole brushless motors don't break too much of a sweat but get warm.

Yes, in general a lower kv brushless is good for crawling vs. a higher kv. However most of this can be handled with trans and axle gearing. For example. I have a Tekin Roc412 in 2300kv and 3100kv. I've put them both in the same rig, but changed the gearing to get the same wheel speed (56/9 for 3100 and 56/12 for 2300). Both crawled equally well, however the 3100 got a lot hotter under extended duration at full speed. I was surprised due to the gearing. This is all on 3S in a pretty heavy 2.2 scaler.
On the other side, I run a 3300kv HH Trailmaster Pro (2 pole, not the 4 pole pullers) geared at 56/12 in a 1.9 scaler. This motor stays perfectly cool and has all the top speed I could use. Plus it crawls buttery smooth. My point is that you can make most motors from say 1800-3500kv crawl really well if you handle gearing well. BTW - these were all run with MMP escs.



Getting back to the OP question. I run combinations of both brushed and brushless motors.

I agree with one poster that all my trail/g6/ttc rigs are brushless. All my scale comp rigs and sporty/mod rigs are brushed.

I used to run brushless in my scale comp rigs as I only had a couple, but as my garage has proliferated, I have the luxury of multiple rigs now.

Brushless worked fine for comps but lacked drag brake like a brushed motor. This is an advantage on a steep decent when you are going face first as the truck will slowly drive right down the hill (even with the MMP set to full drag). I've owned half a dozen brushless motors for crawling and none of them can hold drag brake like a brushed motor. Yes they will do an endo when you let off throttle from high speed, but in a steep crawl, they don't hold. On an up hill when you are trying to maneuver to a gate, if you let off throttle a little it rolls back a little and you have a reverse penalty. The brushed rigs I run in comps now all have HH BRXL so I get the holmes hold function on the drag brake. Plus as long as the tires are holding, the truck doesn't roll back. I run these brushed trucks on 4S lipo to get the wheel speed when I need it. Maintenance is just sending them in for rebuild once a year.
Lastly, there is a benefit to startup on brushed motors, no matter how good of a brushless setup you have. It's those times when trying to enter or get through a gate at a true snails pace, you realize the benefit.

If you have 1 truck and you plan to comp and run G6/TTC/Trail events, go brushless.

If you have the luxury to have more trucks, mix it up.

On the question of $100 motors. No big surprise to me. I run some HH pro motors and Brood motors worth $70-100 new. I just keep rebuilding them. Some of the serious comp guys get special motors from brood or HH that are $250 plus for a brushed motor. These will exceed the speed and torque of a lot of brushless motors...until the brushes wear out :mrgreen:

So its true you can't get a sensored brushless motor to snail crawl like brushed? I thought HH puller pro's was the solution. I run the 3500kv puller pro and honestly, one of my 17.5T 2-pole on-road sedan motors has better slow startup, just not enough power.

 

[quark]

On an up hill when you are trying to maneuver to a gate, if you let off throttle a little it rolls back a little and you have a reverse penalty.

Our scale comps here don't have a reverse penalty like that. Is this a big factor for using brushed in comps?

 

[quark]

Hard to follow after all of that.
On my crawlers I prefer brushless sensored. Beautiful slow take off and plenty of wheel speed when needed.
I also runa Bullyll MOA brushed run thru BRMD and controlled by my Futaba. I can walk straight up and down, lock either axle and have a proportional throttle mix to slow my rear axle way down as needed.


Hang up and Drive

Why don't you run brushless in your MOA? all that stuff you talk about is done via the transmitter, not much to do with brushed vs brushless.

 

[dna4engr]

Our scale comps here don't have a reverse penalty like that. Is this a big factor for using brushed in comps?

I guess it just depends on what rules you use. Each club can make changes as they see fit to promote he hobby and fun factor.

If you follow the rules to a tee when the tires rotate in a reverse direction, regardless of if you intended them to or not, its a penalty. This technically includes even when you're bound up and are feathering the throttle to work out of the bind.

If the truck slides in reverse when tires are stationary or moving in a forward rotation, no penalty.

The exceptions are when you are high centered. You can rock the throttle back and forth to get your truck to go either way only incurring 1 reverse penalty. Also if you are upside down or on your side you can reverse with no penalty. But once you are righted you need to either stop or continue reversing if you don't want a penalty. If you come out of being on the side and stop then start reversing again, it's a penalty.

I've personally struggled with brushless trucks if I'm personally at a bad angle and need to move to get a better sight line. If I don't hold the trigger at the same spot it might roll back. With brushed trucks they just sit there. This assumes a good motor and good esc with drag brake. Not a traxxas xl5 with a silver can motor.

I've watched a lot of trucks as they try to ge the truck positioned to make an attempt at a line. They give a little throttle and the. Let off the trigger and the truck moves back. They do this 5 or 6 more times before trying the line. Technically it's 5-6 penalties. However we give the benefit of the doubt if it's only 1 or 2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mikemcE]

My two motors cost 1/2 of one of my brushless


Hang up and Drive

 

[quark]

I guess it just depends on what rules you use. Each club can make changes as they see fit to promote he hobby and fun factor.

If you follow the rules to a tee when the tires rotate in a reverse direction, regardless of if you intended them to or not, its a penalty. This technically includes even when you're bound up and are feathering the throttle to work out of the bind.

If the truck slides in reverse when tires are stationary or moving in a forward rotation, no penalty.

The exceptions are when you are high centered. You can rock the throttle back and forth to get your truck to go either way only incurring 1 reverse penalty. Also if you are upside down or on your side you can reverse with no penalty. But once you are righted you need to either stop or continue reversing if you don't want a penalty. If you come out of being on the side and stop then start reversing again, it's a penalty.

I've personally struggled with brushless trucks if I'm personally at a bad angle and need to move to get a better sight line. If I don't hold the trigger at the same spot it might roll back. With brushed trucks they just sit there. This assumes a good motor and good esc with drag brake. Not a traxxas xl5 with a silver can motor.

I've watched a lot of trucks as they try to ge the truck positioned to make an attempt at a line. They give a little throttle and the. Let off the trigger and the truck moves back. They do this 5 or 6 more times before trying the line. Technically it's 5-6 penalties. However we give the benefit of the doubt if it's only 1 or 2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ah, I see. I run my truck with 40% drag brake actually and just hold the throttle on a hill to prevent it from rolling back. Personally, I feel I have way more control this way because I can ease of throttle instead of a applying reverse, likewise for descents, easily roll down, than applying throttle to go down.

I give brushed motors that it has very good holding power for drag brakes. So is that slow speed motor start that much better than a brushless?

 

[quark]

My two motors cost 1/2 of one of my brushless


Hang up and Drive

Cool. That is a very sensible reason for going brushed, but would you say if money grew on trees, would you run brushless?

 

[bongsten]

I still think for slow speed crawling a hand wound brushed motor is the best. I have a deadbolt with a MMP and a 3100kv ROC412 and its rad tons of speed tons of torque but the low speed motor control just isn't there compared to a brushed setup, don't get me wrong here too sensored brushless i great but not the same. My other 3 trucks are all brushed motors. This is definitely a what are you going to use the truck for question.

 

[mikemcE]

Cool. That is a very sensible reason for going brushed, but would you say if money grew on trees, would you run brushless?

Can't say I see the need to.
It would also require a big heavy pair of esc's to run the dig function
I might add I've never seen a bully or berg run brushless
I honestly do not see any difference on brushed startup on my bully to my shaftys running sensored Tekin's on MMP /BLE all three can creep just as smoothly


Hang up and Drive

 

[84yoda]

Brushless in everything for me except my moa. It needs the creep a brushed motor has and also all that wheel speed isn't needed.

 

[quark]

Can't say I see the need to.
It would also require a big heavy pair of esc's to run the dig function
I might add I've never seen a bully or berg run brushless
I honestly do not see any difference on brushed startup on my bully to my shaftys running sensored Tekin's on MMP /BLE all three can creep just as smoothly


Hang up and Drive

Ever tried a HH Puller Pro brushless on MMP /BLE? compared to Tekin's?

 

[Frank211]

Something in the 2200 to 3300 is a good start for a 2 speed. Allows you to use a smaller pinion if you go with the higher kv . The whole intent of the 2 speed is to get higher speed when shifting gears. or have a "fast" speed that's your normal and shift down for slower speeds. However, most 2 speed trans out there have a very low 1st speed so people use that and shift up for speed.
No question on a 2 speed you should use a brushless motor. Simply because at the higher gear at high speeds, if you face any load (like hills, mud, snow) it is too much for the brushes on a normal brushed motor to take. Most 4 pole brushless motors don't break too much of a sweat but get warm.

Yes, in general a lower kv brushless is good for crawling vs. a higher kv. However most of this can be handled with trans and axle gearing. For example. I have a Tekin Roc412 in 2300kv and 3100kv. I've put them both in the same rig, but changed the gearing to get the same wheel speed (56/9 for 3100 and 56/12 for 2300). Both crawled equally well, however the 3100 got a lot hotter under extended duration at full speed. I was surprised due to the gearing. This is all on 3S in a pretty heavy 2.2 scaler.
On the other side, I run a 3300kv HH Trailmaster Pro (2 pole, not the 4 pole pullers) geared at 56/12 in a 1.9 scaler. This motor stays perfectly cool and has all the top speed I could use. Plus it crawls buttery smooth. My point is that you can make most motors from say 1800-3500kv crawl really well if you handle gearing well. BTW - these were all run with MMP escs.



Getting back to the OP question. I run combinations of both brushed and brushless motors.

I agree with one poster that all my trail/g6/ttc rigs are brushless. All my scale comp rigs and sporty/mod rigs are brushed.

I used to run brushless in my scale comp rigs as I only had a couple, but as my garage has proliferated, I have the luxury of multiple rigs now.

Brushless worked fine for comps but lacked drag brake like a brushed motor. This is an advantage on a steep decent when you are going face first as the truck will slowly drive right down the hill (even with the MMP set to full drag). I've owned half a dozen brushless motors for crawling and none of them can hold drag brake like a brushed motor. Yes they will do an endo when you let off throttle from high speed, but in a steep crawl, they don't hold. On an up hill when you are trying to maneuver to a gate, if you let off throttle a little it rolls back a little and you have a reverse penalty. The brushed rigs I run in comps now all have HH BRXL so I get the holmes hold function on the drag brake. Plus as long as the tires are holding, the truck doesn't roll back. I run these brushed trucks on 4S lipo to get the wheel speed when I need it. Maintenance is just sending them in for rebuild once a year.
Lastly, there is a benefit to startup on brushed motors, no matter how good of a brushless setup you have. It's those times when trying to enter or get through a gate at a true snails pace, you realize the benefit.

If you have 1 truck and you plan to comp and run G6/TTC/Trail events, go brushless.

If you have the luxury to have more trucks, mix it up.

On the question of $100 motors. No big surprise to me. I run some HH pro motors and Brood motors worth $70-100 new. I just keep rebuilding them. Some of the serious comp guys get special motors from brood or HH that are $250 plus for a brushed motor. These will exceed the speed and torque of a lot of brushless motors...until the brushes wear out :mrgreen:

You blew my mind 250 for a brushed motor,
And I thought 100 was kinda up there , but 250..... What goes into a 250 brushed motor, gold brushes...lol.
...WOW.....

 

[Hardcoretam]

I'm baffled why folks still run a brushed motor. Also baffled at why there are $100 dedicated brushed motors.

I agree when it comes to very expensive brushed set ups but i think brushed set ups can potentially offer better value for money, especially when at the lower end of the spending budget.

Goolrc brushed motors are about $10. Adjustible timing, dual ball bearings and perform great for the price.
Hobbywing 1080 programmable ESC with card is really good as well for about $35. Strong BEC. Waterproof. 80amps. Lots of settings etc.
$45 for both
Or if even tighter budget get the 1060 non programmible ESC with motor for about $20 for both

For a sensored brushless setup that is as reliable and drives as smoothly, it would cost a significant amount more.

 

[quark]

I agree when it comes to very expensive brushed set ups but i think brushed set ups can potentially offer better value for money, especially when at the lower end of the spending budget.

Goolrc brushed motors are about $10. Adjustible timing, dual ball bearings and perform great for the price.
Hobbywing 1080 programmable ESC with card is really good as well for about $35. Strong BEC. Waterproof. 80amps. Lots of settings etc.
$45 for both
Or if even tighter budget get the 1060 non programmible ESC with motor for about $20 for both

For a sensored brushless setup that is as reliable and drives as smoothly, it would cost a significant amount more.

Yes, I know most of the guys go brushed because it's cheaper and performs well enough. I'd like to stay on topic and not consider money here and just want to compare all out the best brush vs the best brushless for that last 10% of performance, feel, response that only a few will be able to determine the difference.