The words most vendors don't want to hear. "I think someone copied your design".

[John]

The words most vendors don't want to hear. "I think someone copied your design".

Ok, here we go. We all know how popular the RC crawling hobby has become in the last few years<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
With the rapid growth in the hobby, comes the rapid increase in RC rock crawling inventors of new parts and pieces. It happens ever where and with all industries, so it should not be to anyone’s surprise that it has happen to the rc rock crawling hobby. <o></o>
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Now that the masses have been exposed to this hobby through the largest RC rock crawling forum out there (rccrawlers.com), we are faced with a rapid increase in those who have great ideas and would like to test their ideas in the manufacturing and sales world. It has become apparent that as more people are making RC crawling parts, there are going to be many more products produced that resemble or copy another’s work, in some way. It’s inevitable. There are only so many ways to change an RC crawling part and still be able to say it is unique and different than what is already out there. As one member stated in another thread; most of the parts made for RC rock crawling have originated or are very similar to either 1:1 or previously RC related vehicles. <o></o>
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Rules for this thread.<o></o>
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1) Absolutely no name calling, bashing or mentioning of specific vendors or members names. I don’t want any vendors name brought into the discussion.<o></o>
2) Absolutely no pictures of vendor’s products. Most of us already are aware of what everyone makes, so no need to bring them into the discussion and have the thread take off in so many different directions. <o></o>
3) All the potential posts are the opinions of each person. Try not to get too frustrated about what others may have to say. They are their opinions only. If you disagree, then post your reasons why, and then move on.<o></o>
4) Since the use of “patents” and “patent pending” products in the RC industry are rare, let’s not bring them into the discussion. Let’s keep the discussion on those RC crawling parts that in my opinion have no real legal copy protection, which is the category most of the RC crawling parts we see today fall into.<o></o>
5) If the rules are abused, I will ask the moderators to delete the posts. Not sure if they will do it, but I will at least try.<o></o>
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Suggested Topics for Discussion These topics are suggestions that I have formulated from recent posts and questions throughout this forum. Feel free to contribute with other discussions related to the topic.<o></o>
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1) In regards to RC crawling parts being sold by vendors; in a capitalistic system where competition plays a major role, should price, availability, quality and customer care win out and if someone replicates another’s work, than so be it? <o></o>
2) Do ethics ever come into play? I can tell you I have the highest respect for those vendors that take the time to contact original inventors of products showing signs of similarity. Sometimes a simple email or phone call letting someone know you are making something similar to theirs, is all it takes for the original inventor to say, hey its fine and I have no problems with it. Other times a small royalty fee is suggested and both parties profit from the success of the product. <o></o>
3) Is it acceptable to you, if a vendor uses the same hole locations for shocks, links and motor mounts as another vendors product, but makes small variations to the chassis shape?. After all, these locations are pretty much located in the same general area. <o></o>
4) Is it acceptable to you if another vendor copies your product, but changes the material it’s made of, whether that material improves the product or not?<o></o>
5) Are we at the point with RC crawling parts, that all is fair game and if someone exposes their product to the market (without a patent), than anyone has the right to copy it? <o></o>
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I think there have been a growing number of threads that deal in some way the “copy” question. Although the opinions conveyed in this thread may not change the way things are done, it will at the least, bring to light the opinions of rcc members, all in one thread.<o></o>

 

[Unholy]

Would it be a fair question to ask you why you have become so interested in this?

 

[John]

Would it be a fair question to ask you why you have become so interested in this?

The "copy" theme has been popping up in varies threads throughout this forum as of late. When it comes up, it takes away from the original topic the first post was trying to convey. I think it is an important topic and can only get worse if people don't post up their opinions on the issues. What better way than to express your views on the subject, than in one thread, where vendor bashing and name calling aren't allowed.

 

[FrankyRizzo]

I think that if a product is fairly priced, and that is subject to the product and what the market can bear, that there should be no reason to copy said product.

If a variation of a product is made maybe a small committee should be allowed a preview of said products and either allow or disallow the product from being sold here.

 

[Unholy]

The "copy" theme has been popping up in varies threads throughout this forum as of late. When it comes up, it takes away from the original topic the first post was trying to convey. I think it is an important topic and can only get worse if people don't post up their opinions on the issues. What better way than to express your views on the subject, than in one thread, where vendor bashing and name calling aren't allowed.

I think I understand your intent, and I'll admit I am cynical when these issues get "special" attention.

I believe that having this discussion in general population will never work as people who feel they have been burned will always have an axe to grind. Look at the other patent thread. There are very few people who came out of that looking better after defending their respective camps.

I think that since any "good" that comes out of this thread will really be applicable to this website only, maybe the owners need to set the rules on what is fair game and what is a copy.

This thread, if done right, can be help to create that ruleset.

If rules are set, they can't be subjective or committee based as the "good ol' boy" rule would be in effect.

The rules would have to be applied even handed across all products sold.

 

[cartronicshn]

I think if a product can be improved from the current design, it can be copied to do just that, improve on it.
Competition is healthy, quality should prevail against lesser quality competition.
Ethics should play a major role, i don't want to buy and exact cheap replica of something, this would make it a knock off.

 

[Offroader5]

I have made several parts for my own crawlers that were coaxed into design by seeing it somewhere else. I would rather (and do try to) make something my own design, at least so I can confidently call it my own and be proud of it. With that said, It's also natural that you could see a product realizing that it's a good design and know it's functional, but notice things about it that you don't like or things in your opinion need to be changed. At that point you could come up with a modified design of the product with your changes.

In the legal world this would be enough to call it your own. However, the things I produce get used by me and don't get resold to the market, so legality is not really an issue for building my own pieces for personal use.

My personal values would prevent me from taking someone else's design, making a single modification, then calling it my own. Even if I made multiple changes to the product, but there were still echo's of the original design that jump out at you, I would feel obligated to at least give credit to the original manufacturer/designer of said product to which my idea sprouted.

I do understand that there are only a certain number of ways to redesign "the wheel", but there's always someone that will think outside the box and design the next evolutionary step of a product.

Bottom line for me is that I would feel guilty if I called someone else's design my own.

 

[Double J]

1) In regards to RC crawling parts being sold by vendors; in a capitalistic system where competition plays a major role, should price, availability, quality and customer care win out and if someone replicates another’s work, than so be it?

In my honest opinion there are parts that will be duplicated that can only have a minimum amount of changes to them. If Vendor 1 can make a longer lasting, more durable part that is basically a copy of the “original” manufactured part and can make it less expensive then vendor 2, then all’s game I guess. But when it comes to the unique design and fabrication to make said part better but functionally does the same job then that unique design should not be duplicated.

2) Do ethics ever come into play? I can tell you I have the highest respect for those vendors that take the time to contact original inventors of products showing signs of similarity. Sometimes a simple email or phone call letting someone know you are making something similar to theirs, is all it takes for the original inventor to say, hey its fine and I have no problems with it. Other times a small royalty fee is suggested and both parties profit from the success of the product.

Yes. I believe if I’m going to make something similar to another vendors product I would by all means contact that vendor and make sure it’s OK with them to produce the product and come to a mutual agreement.
I’ve done it in the past and would do again in the future with out hesitation.

3) Is it acceptable to you, if a vendor uses the same hole locations for shocks, links and motor mounts as another vendors product, but makes small variations to the chassis shape?. After all, these locations are pretty much located in the same general area.

I believe it’s acceptable. A chassis or other parts can only have so many locations to mount said parts. But the design it self should not replicate any other form of the other vendors product. I also don’t think that each design will allow for the exact same hole location, if truly design from scratch.

Example: I’ve been asked to replicate other vendors tuber’s on more than one occasion. I in all honesty couldn’t do it. I feel, that vendor has taken pride and time in designing and producing that design and morally can’t do it.

4) Is it acceptable to you if another vendor copies your product, but changes the material it’s made of, whether that material improves the product or not?

NO it’s not acceptable in any way. The product, design and overall functionality is the rights of the original vendor no matter what the material it’s made from. That vendor can and might offer the same product in aluminum, plastic, carbon fiber or delrin in the future.

5) Are we at the point with RC crawling parts, that all is fair game and if someone exposes their product to the market (without a patent), than anyone has the right to copy it?

I feel that if someone takes the time and money to design, produce and market a product they should be protected in some way (usually by the consumer) with out having to spend $5,0000 (more or less) for applying for a patient.
I also feel that if a vendor wants to copy another non-vendors product or design the vendor should get the ok to do so. Just cause he’s not a vendor doesn’t mean his design is any less protected in some way.

I think in the end if you can make a product better than the next guy, then try to do so with out exactly duplicating 80% of it.

 

[4u2nv]

Shouldn't the owners of the 1:1 rigs that people build "copies" of be notified?

 

[Double J]

I don't know. what do you think?


If I was mass producing a Monster Energy Desert Racer then yes I'd contact them and work out a deal.

If I see a truck down the road I like and deside to make a RC version, do you really think he cares?

 

[Offroader5]

I do agree with alot of the statements Double J made above.

Using myself as an example, I like to design chassis', and have also designed wishbones for suspensions. I do it for fun, not to sell and make money off of. I have freely put many of them up on my website as templates for people to build their own.

With that said, it's my own fault if someone starts producing them and selling them as their own...nothing I can do legally. Now, I would hope to at least get an email from them informing me of their intentions. At this point it would be in their best interest to do so, because if they just throw them up for sale and people see a well known chassis and wonder what's going on...they may think badly of the vendor thinking they are taking credit for the design.

If the vendor stated that they have already had the discussion with the original designer, and they give credit to them, it says alot about the vendor up front, and people will immediately feel comfortable dealing with them.

 

[STANG KILLA SS]

im surprised this is allowed to continue....
that being said, i only have 1 personal experience with this.

i had a freind in this hobby thats a vendor on a site, he came up with two products that had never been done before, not even close to something else, an origonal creation, he was a one man show making things by hand. now not long after he posted them for sale, another vendor(with mass production and machine cabibilites) on another site suddenly came out with the same product.
this hit home because he was a close freind, and had worked hard, and been super creative to come up with a product that had never really been done before.

could both guys have come up with the same idea/design at the same time? yes possible, there are 39456894768956 zillion people and ideas being created in this world
is it likly? not very.

ive kept my mouth shut about this never saying anything.

 

[RedNeck Rc]

In my opinion if a vendor, company, or even just anybody can improve upon a concept or design and make it better than they should do so. In theory this is all that happens for everything. Just a basic variation of the same object changed to look more pleasing or for performance improvements.

I also believe if you copy an idea and ask so from the original producer to copy for personal use than you should be able to. Lets say for instance that some one designs an amazing new concept tube chassis. If I ask to copy or base it off of there concept, should I be allowed to? That is where I even ask myself the question, if it is okay to copy someones idea for you personal use. I do how ever feel that once you build one and intend to sell a copy of someone else's item than that is completely wrong and you should be punished for it.

 

[Double J]

redneck - good point. I've had members ask to copy something I've made. I have no problem with them doing it for themselves.

But for an example: I wanted to make the Clod/TLT Shaft both designs are based off the Stick concept. The first thing I did was contact Kevin at TCS and sent him designs and specs, and let him know my intentions (being limited designs and not for mass sales) we then came to a conclusion and had no problems. Now if I didn't do that there really could have been a problem or just bad feelings.

 

[jason]

I am not sure what RCC is supposed to do about this. Basically all these vendors pay us to advertise their products on the site, as long as they do not break the general rules we have setup here I let them do their thing.

Some people have suggested that we put together a group to approve all new designs and make sure they don't copy other desings. 1. There is not enough daylight for us to analyze every product and become a "mini patent office". 2. It is not our place to tell people what they can and cannot sell.

How far should it be taken, should there only be 1 TVP chassis allowed for TLT's, 1 TVP allowed for Axials, 1 TVP for Wheely Kings? What about knuckles, I'll bet I could go into the vendors section and buy 5 different tlt aluminum knuckles, they all have tiny differences, but do we need to ban 4 of the vendors and only let 1 sell them?

 

[Double J]

jason I don't think RCC should become a mini patent office and rightly so shouldn't be expected to.

I've seen it in the past where someone has blatatly(sp) copied another persons design and they were raked over the coles for it by the public.

I think if people are upfront and honest in there dealings there would be no problems.

 

[Offroader5]

jason I don't think RCC should become a mini patent office and rightly so shouldn't be expected to.

I've seen it in the past where someone has blatatly(sp) copied another persons design and they were raked over the coles for it by the public.

I think if people are upfront and honest in there dealings there would be no problems.

Couldn't agree more. How well is that product going to sell if people know the design is someone else's? Won't look too good for them. It comes down to whether the person selling the "stolen" design is an upstanding person. It's all about how well you sleep at night IMO. Do unto others...

 

[PaulEZK]

Some of you may know, most now probably don't, I use to be a vendor but because of hard times I've had to stop. So anyhow, thats kinda where I'm coming from.

I know the pains of design and coming up with products, though I never had to endure someone copying me, that I know of..

With that said, I tend to agree with what Jason said.

But I also agree with some of the things Double J said.

I like to consider myself an honorable man, because of that I wouldn't outright copy someones design. But have I taken an idea and improved/changed it? Yes I have.

But this is America and ultimately, if you want protection, get a patent. Thats how the law works. For people to think that an internet forum will stop copiers, thats just not in the cards. Where would the line be drawn for rules(Laws)? People will find other places to sell their product and bypass the problem site.

Yes this is the biggest website for RC crawling, but it's only a website.. Reality is, I could tell the owners of this website to fork off. They have no authority over me or what I do. The only thing they can do is stop me from visiting their site. That wouldn't stop me from selling a copied product(for example). I could easily go to a different website or even sell my item to a corperation like Hobby people or something.

Summary:
If you're honest and honorable, you won't copy. If you want to be protected, get yourself a patent. Don't expect a website to do it for you.

 

[Big Mike]

Double J sounds like someone with some experience in the matter. And he sounds like an honest businessman.

Do ethics ever come into play? I can tell you I have the highest respect for those vendors that take the time to contact original inventors of products showing signs of similarity

I have to be honest - as the market grows and there's more money to be made, the ethics end of things will suffer. It always happens. Decent people give props where they are due, but greed can override a lot of other mitigating factors.

5) Are we at the point with RC crawling parts, that all is fair game and if someone exposes their product to the market (without a patent), than anyone has the right to copy it?

Ethically speaking, no. But some folks have no scruples. They can sleep at night no matter what.

The Chinese are like that. They'll knock off your product in a heartbeat if they can get their hands on one and think they can turn a profit, patent or no patent. They just don't care, cause they know there's not much you can do about it.

Patents are still important when it comes to this country. Nothing we've done in my company as far as product development was made public in any way until our patent lawyers gave us the green light. We've had to serve notice on 3 different entrepenuers since.

The crawler market is becoming more and more viable. There's definitely money to be made with the growing popularity. That makes it pretty cut-and-dried to me - if you think you have something truly innovative that will become a part that everyone will think they need to have to be competitive, or something that all scale builders will just not be able to live without, in short something you feel is going to be a HIT - keep it on the down-low until you can at least get far enough through the process to be able to legally say "patent pending".

Is it acceptable to you, if a vendor uses the same hole locations for shocks, links and motor mounts as another vendors product, but makes small variations to the chassis shape?

There's a thousand different ways to cut out some plates for a TVP. You can weld/braze/solder tubes together in God knows how many different configurations. But I'll bet money on this - that the ones that actually work on the rocks and perform above the rest - the ones that win comps - are going to have very similar mounting points for links and shocks. The Gods of Suspension Dynamics do not care if you've cut flames or skulls into your TVP or welded up an exact replica of some 1:1 tuber you saw somewhere, good suspension setups are going to have some basic similarities. You can't patent stuff like that.

And some things, like output shaft sizes, motor/transmission mount patterns, tire beads, wheel interfaces, things like that should be standardized.

This is deep subject that could either go on for days - or mysteriously disappear...

 

[Big Mike]

I am not sure what RCC is supposed to do about this. Basically all these vendors pay us to advertise their products on the site, as long as they do not break the general rules we have setup here I let them do their thing.

Some people have suggested that we put together a group to approve all new designs and make sure they don't copy other desings. 1. There is not enough daylight for us to analyze every product and become a "mini patent office". 2. It is not our place to tell people what they can and cannot sell.

How far should it be taken, should there only be 1 TVP chassis allowed for TLT's, 1 TVP allowed for Axials, 1 TVP for Wheely Kings? What about knuckles, I'll bet I could go into the vendors section and buy 5 different tlt aluminum knuckles, they all have tiny differences, but do we need to ban 4 of the vendors and only let 1 sell them?

You guys can't expect the site to be the industry watchdog on this kind of stuff. It's not their problem. They get a fee from every vendor, so the more the merrier. Caveat Emptor - it's up to the end user to best spend his dollar. They either do their homework or not.

If it's going to get that cut-throat you guys should be getting your patents together.

That's where the irony comes in - the patent process and patent lawyers are not cheap by any means. The big companies that have shown an interest in crawling these past few months, they have the war chest on hand to beat you to the punch. If you can't fund the process yourself or convince an investor that you've got a hot product you're pretty much S O L...

Are we seeing the end of the beginning of crawling?