RaleighRCer
Quarry Creeper
Do the bigger vendors get more respect? Sure seems like it to me.
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The words most vendors don't want to hear. "I think someone copied your design".
- Thread starter John
- Start date
JUSTGOINGSLOW
RCC Addict
It should not matter how big or small they are it's just plain respect
idahorock
Rock Stacker
In a perfect and compassionate world I would hope if I came up with a novel design I would be free to produce my product without fear of it being copied and life would be good.
In my opinion compassion in the real world is given to the person that holds a solid patent for his novel idea.No patent and you are just begging for some one else with better manufacturing/marketing skills to steal your idea or improve it.
The minute you make a product for profit your playing with the big boys and they dont care how unethical it is to steal your idea,they only care about making money,which is why you originally sold your first product.
RC rock crawling is huge and I doubt but a few people would be willing to buy from the originator of a product if they can buy a knockoff thats better and also cheaper.To me its human nature and its not going to change.
This is coming from someone that had a novel idea (hunting call)and had it copied and mass produced beyond my wildest dreams.For me a patent was too expensive and I thought companies had ethics,live and learn
In my opinion compassion in the real world is given to the person that holds a solid patent for his novel idea.No patent and you are just begging for some one else with better manufacturing/marketing skills to steal your idea or improve it.
The minute you make a product for profit your playing with the big boys and they dont care how unethical it is to steal your idea,they only care about making money,which is why you originally sold your first product.
RC rock crawling is huge and I doubt but a few people would be willing to buy from the originator of a product if they can buy a knockoff thats better and also cheaper.To me its human nature and its not going to change.
This is coming from someone that had a novel idea (hunting call)and had it copied and mass produced beyond my wildest dreams.For me a patent was too expensive and I thought companies had ethics,live and learn
The thing that I get stoked about is when someone, not a manufacturer or vendor, copies a design that someone spent their time and money on R&D...just to save some $$$.
If I want an item that someone has developed and manufactured, I will buy it from them. They have all the sweat and blood in that item.
I hear people say..."They charge so much, I can buy the material for a third of that and do it myself" What about the labor...the material is only one part of the cost...
From experience, It is a lot easier to spend the money to get a tested item than try to reinvent the wheel. It is not fair to the person that did all the testing, to have someone reap the benefits without giving the developer some type of $$$.
If I want an item that someone has developed and manufactured, I will buy it from them. They have all the sweat and blood in that item.
I hear people say..."They charge so much, I can buy the material for a third of that and do it myself" What about the labor...the material is only one part of the cost...
From experience, It is a lot easier to spend the money to get a tested item than try to reinvent the wheel. It is not fair to the person that did all the testing, to have someone reap the benefits without giving the developer some type of $$$.
JeremyH
I wanna be Dave
For some people, time is NOT more important than money.
I see nothing wrong with someone copying a design for personal use. I also see nothing wrong with someone copying a design for the purpose of selling. If the person who did it first has a problem with that, they need to obtain a patent BEFORE the introduction of the item....not whine about it later.
The customers will do the talking here. They will purchase the item of best quality from the company with the best customer service.
Stormin2u
I wanna be Dave
l think Big Mike has best described what has happened in the past IMO to other fast growing RC hobby/sports which crawling has become.
His comments about laying low until the patent lawyers say that you have legal rights in place to defend your property is really the only legitimate defense.
Expecting moral or ethical actions taken buy the consuming general public, websites, vendors or manufacturers will do nothing to help protect a inventor's great product idea IMO is unrealistic.
Taking action to protect inventor's rights by the patent process would also probably slow the development and sales of new products but would that hurt the hobby/sport? Seems like that decision will be made by the original owner of the next great product idea as it appears the time has come.
His comments about laying low until the patent lawyers say that you have legal rights in place to defend your property is really the only legitimate defense.
Expecting moral or ethical actions taken buy the consuming general public, websites, vendors or manufacturers will do nothing to help protect a inventor's great product idea IMO is unrealistic.
Taking action to protect inventor's rights by the patent process would also probably slow the development and sales of new products but would that hurt the hobby/sport? Seems like that decision will be made by the original owner of the next great product idea as it appears the time has come.
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todd1803
Rock Crawler
Sales of RC crawling products are governed by the laws of the country / state / city where they reside, NOT by the users or administrators of an internet forum (which is basically what Jason already stated).
Provided all is legal, they are also governed by the theories of supply and demand, and a free market economy.
Hopefully, most of you bashing the makers of "copies" never buy the generic brand at the grocery store? If you do, isn't that being kind of hipocritical? Say you go to Safeway for Nyquil. Sitting right next to it on the shelf is the "store brand", in the same size and shape bottle, in the same flavors and colors, and when you read the label, they have the exact same ingredients. And the store brand is $2 a bottle cheaper, because they have no advertising and brand name to support. Which do you buy?
I used cold medicine as an example, but if you buy the store brand of anything instead of the name brand, you shouldn't be on this thread preaching how it's wrong to copy the products of others, because thats what you are supporting every time you buy generic in the grocery store.
Think about it......
Provided all is legal, they are also governed by the theories of supply and demand, and a free market economy.
Hopefully, most of you bashing the makers of "copies" never buy the generic brand at the grocery store? If you do, isn't that being kind of hipocritical? Say you go to Safeway for Nyquil. Sitting right next to it on the shelf is the "store brand", in the same size and shape bottle, in the same flavors and colors, and when you read the label, they have the exact same ingredients. And the store brand is $2 a bottle cheaper, because they have no advertising and brand name to support. Which do you buy?
I used cold medicine as an example, but if you buy the store brand of anything instead of the name brand, you shouldn't be on this thread preaching how it's wrong to copy the products of others, because thats what you are supporting every time you buy generic in the grocery store.
Think about it......
Unholy
I wanna be Dave
1) In regards to RC crawling parts being sold by vendors; in a capitalistic system where competition plays a major role, should price, availability, quality and customer care win out and if someone replicates another’s work, than so be it?
I think there are very few "unique" ideas that deserve to be respected in crawler parts. Most of them are chassis types. If you manufacture/distribute a modified version of an existing product like a spool or locker for a specific axle, there is no reason another place can't manufacture/distribute another one. If you want to distribute various manufactures items that compete with each other, why can't someone else also compete with your products. In the end, the consumer should be the driving factor. A lot of people think price will win, but not all of us think that way. That said, if a $50 product not better quality then a $10 competitor, why get the $50 version? That's where customer service, loyalty and reputation comes into play.
2) Do ethics ever come into play? I can tell you I have the highest respect for those vendors that take the time to contact original inventors of products showing signs of similarity. Sometimes a simple email or phone call letting someone know you are making something similar to theirs, is all it takes for the original inventor to say, hey its fine and I have no problems with it. Other times a small royalty fee is suggested and both parties profit from the success of the product.
Ethics definitely come into play, and we have seen everything from outright threats to other vendors to downright lies. We have seen vendors complain about a competing product, then turn around and distribute "copies" of one of their suppliers products. It's possible to hold a ethical public face while at the same time slyly backstabbing the very sport you claim to support to secure your place in the marketplace. Most of the vendors on this board are doing what they do for the love of sport/hobby, whatever you prefer to consider this. Others have decided that anything goes as long as a dollar is made. I understand it's a business. I understand that one tends to protect their investments. I also know there are ethical and unethical ways to do business.
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3) Is it acceptable to you, if a vendor uses the same hole locations for shocks, links and motor mounts as another vendors product, but makes small variations to the chassis shape?. After all, these locations are pretty much located in the same general area.
It's hard to make a call here. there is a sweet spot in size of chassis for a 2.2 class crawler. Standard 4 link geometry is pretty much going to dictate approximate locations for mounting points, especially when using existing parts from other kits to create links. There are very few "unique" configurations in chassis. Most TVP are going to function the same, with only cosmetic changes.
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4) Is it acceptable to you if another vendor copies your product, but changes the material it’s made of, whether that material improves the product or not?
<o>Duplicates of anything, with only material changes are not acceptable unless it's an internal part that has to fit specific applications. i.e. - a hardened ring and pinion for durability etc. taking someone else's chassis plates and tracing them onto delrin isn't going to fly no matter what.</o>
5) Are we at the point with RC crawling parts, that all is fair game and if someone exposes their product to the market (without a patent), than anyone has the right to copy it?
Again, I believe the consumers will weed out the obvious copies. If I make a $300 Chassis X and you make a duplicate that is of lesser quality and sell it for $50, you may sell a few of your chassis. Is that going to hurt my business? More than likely not as most of the people who buy the $50 chassis were never going to have the cash to buy my $300 one. And how many is this guy really going to be able to build? And how long will he be around? How long until he messes up and sells an out of alignment one to a discriminating consumer and gets blasted on the board? More than likely, if it's close enough of a copy, he is going to get blasted right out of the gate. The community will weed out the idiots. It's happened many times over the last 2 years.
As long as this boards rules are applied even handedly for all vendors, large or small, the community will reward the honest and ethical vendors.
If anyone gets special treatment or is allowed to bully other vendors, we'll end up with a monopoly that doesn't really care about anything but the dollars and cents we bring to the table.
I think there are very few "unique" ideas that deserve to be respected in crawler parts. Most of them are chassis types. If you manufacture/distribute a modified version of an existing product like a spool or locker for a specific axle, there is no reason another place can't manufacture/distribute another one. If you want to distribute various manufactures items that compete with each other, why can't someone else also compete with your products. In the end, the consumer should be the driving factor. A lot of people think price will win, but not all of us think that way. That said, if a $50 product not better quality then a $10 competitor, why get the $50 version? That's where customer service, loyalty and reputation comes into play.
2) Do ethics ever come into play? I can tell you I have the highest respect for those vendors that take the time to contact original inventors of products showing signs of similarity. Sometimes a simple email or phone call letting someone know you are making something similar to theirs, is all it takes for the original inventor to say, hey its fine and I have no problems with it. Other times a small royalty fee is suggested and both parties profit from the success of the product.
Ethics definitely come into play, and we have seen everything from outright threats to other vendors to downright lies. We have seen vendors complain about a competing product, then turn around and distribute "copies" of one of their suppliers products. It's possible to hold a ethical public face while at the same time slyly backstabbing the very sport you claim to support to secure your place in the marketplace. Most of the vendors on this board are doing what they do for the love of sport/hobby, whatever you prefer to consider this. Others have decided that anything goes as long as a dollar is made. I understand it's a business. I understand that one tends to protect their investments. I also know there are ethical and unethical ways to do business.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com
fficeffice" /><o></o> 3) Is it acceptable to you, if a vendor uses the same hole locations for shocks, links and motor mounts as another vendors product, but makes small variations to the chassis shape?. After all, these locations are pretty much located in the same general area.
It's hard to make a call here. there is a sweet spot in size of chassis for a 2.2 class crawler. Standard 4 link geometry is pretty much going to dictate approximate locations for mounting points, especially when using existing parts from other kits to create links. There are very few "unique" configurations in chassis. Most TVP are going to function the same, with only cosmetic changes.
<o
></o> 4) Is it acceptable to you if another vendor copies your product, but changes the material it’s made of, whether that material improves the product or not?
<o
>Duplicates of anything, with only material changes are not acceptable unless it's an internal part that has to fit specific applications. i.e. - a hardened ring and pinion for durability etc. taking someone else's chassis plates and tracing them onto delrin isn't going to fly no matter what.</o>5) Are we at the point with RC crawling parts, that all is fair game and if someone exposes their product to the market (without a patent), than anyone has the right to copy it?
Again, I believe the consumers will weed out the obvious copies. If I make a $300 Chassis X and you make a duplicate that is of lesser quality and sell it for $50, you may sell a few of your chassis. Is that going to hurt my business? More than likely not as most of the people who buy the $50 chassis were never going to have the cash to buy my $300 one. And how many is this guy really going to be able to build? And how long will he be around? How long until he messes up and sells an out of alignment one to a discriminating consumer and gets blasted on the board? More than likely, if it's close enough of a copy, he is going to get blasted right out of the gate. The community will weed out the idiots. It's happened many times over the last 2 years.
As long as this boards rules are applied even handedly for all vendors, large or small, the community will reward the honest and ethical vendors.
If anyone gets special treatment or is allowed to bully other vendors, we'll end up with a monopoly that doesn't really care about anything but the dollars and cents we bring to the table.
todd1803
Rock Crawler
Unfortunate, but VERY true. The sad reality is that public perception usually carries more weight than facts and reality. The fact that this community is 99% web-exclusive only multiplies this aspect.
I agree 100%, but what happens when the duplicate or similar chassis is of equal or greater quality, and at a substantially lower price? Then which will people buy?
Competition is great way to stop price gouging.
Unholy
I wanna be Dave
It works that way, too. "thumbsup"
Thanks to all who have followed the special rules I made on this thread, as you can see this thread has been up for a couple days and has some good quality feedback.
Now that the thread has dies a little I can't expect people to read every post in it before hitting "Reply" so I have removed the rules and un-banned the offenders early.
Unholy
I wanna be Dave
John,
Now that we have hit on your talking points, would you like to give us your take?
I think we'd all like to hear your thoughts too. "thumbsup"
Now that we have hit on your talking points, would you like to give us your take?
I think we'd all like to hear your thoughts too. "thumbsup"
I am happy to see the responses so far. Very professional and filled with an abundance of useful information and opinions. I will post up my opinion to each of the questions presented in the first post as well as some additional thoughts, shortly.
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