AX 10 torque twist
 

i just go the ax 10 scorpion and i changed the springs to springs from the wheely king because they are a bit shorter and softer because the ones that come in the kit are too stiff.

i like the springs becaue they lower the ride height and also they let the suspension do what it was designed to do

after i changed them the truck twists way too much i tried putting the shock spacers in but it only made it do the same thing when stopping and when it is stopped it sits at a really big angle

all help welcome

i will try to get some pics up tommorrow because my camera battrey has to charge before i can take a picture

You need to triangulate your lower link to reduce your torque twist. Everything else is just a cover up. Do the comp mod and mount your lower links on the inside of the frame on the frame side and mount the axle ends on the furthest mount to make it as wide as possible.

This is my tuber with stock links..except for the rear upper links but that's only because I needed to make them longer to mount were I wanted them to. You can see how triangulated they are...aka dual triangulated four link. I'm running the big bore springs on the stock lenght shocks and have no torque twist.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...r/tuber013.jpg

Good luck "thumbsup"


Here's the link http://www.rccrawler.com/axialcompbuild.html

Accept do not mount the axle ends where they mount them...that make the geometry even worse...no idea why the have it set up like that, mount them on the very outside mounts as close to the tires as possible.

Just keep trying diffent ways. I've got 1.8lb springs on all but the left rear, I'm running a 2.25lb spring and heavier oil on and in left rear + a little extra pre-load. Try something like that ,works well also. 8)

I tried the same thing. I used HPI 6589 all around with stock shock oil. Torque Twist was a huge problem. Even runnig straith flat on a field I could see torque twist.

Than I change to HPI 6589 (had them in my box) but same problem.

Than I did the CKRC conversion, it was much better, and the AX 10 was much more fun to drive.

Now I have read Miller's post and I am a little confused. He says that :

" You need to triangulate your lower link to reduce your torque twist".

So far so good, but when I look am my links (after the ckrc build) i nearly did the opposite. My lower links are parallel or even a bit closer on the axle.

I complet new to rock crawlers and unfortunally here in switzerland there arent much crawlers (everyone semms to want to go as fast as possible).

So what is right now? Should it look like a "W" from above or not? And is it right to do the same in front?

Thanks for your help.

It sounds like you went to softer springs so you could get it to articulate more easily.

I don't know if you have much weight in the wheels but stiffer springs and weight in the wheels will allow your suspension to function fully and will help eliminate torque twist. You can also play with shock position to help with torque twist. My son's Ax-10 has the lower links very close together with little triangulation and it has almost no torque twist. Stiff spings, heavy shock oil, shocks stood more upright. Works great.

I made some small brackets to postion the shocks to get the angle I wanted on the stock chassis.

Yes this was the idea. I had the springs so I gave it a shot. But in the end I went back to the CKRC Setup.

What I am confused about is, that alot of people say that I have to triangulate the suspension. So the upper links go together on the axle (this is the way it is original) and the lower links should be closer on the chassis than on the axle. Right?
So from above the links lock like a "W".
In the first step of the CKRC Setup, the lower links went inside of the chassis. So first step to get the "W" or a better Triangle. But they also get closer to eachother on the axle. About 6mm on eachside. So the "W" now locks more than a "M". The lower links are parallel.

As I said before, I am a newbie to crawlers, and I just try to understand why CKRC did it this way, when others in the forum say you need to triangulate to fight torque twist. My Goal is to learn as much as possible with my AX 10 and than maybe one day build my own tuber. Not to win competition (there are actully no competition in my country) just to have fun an build something with my kids.

another thing is to make the rear upper link go up to the axle like this.

Swiss: I think each driver needs to do the changes he preferes not what other people like. I tried the ckrc set-up and did not like it. I'm finding (because of TOTALLY different rock areas) certain set-ups prevail at each area. So try it all my friend, find out what works for you"thumbsup"

The benefit of running the links closer to the center is added clearance when climbing up over edges etc. Example: When crawling over a standard curb at an angle one of the links may hit the top edge of the curb before the rear tire does causing the rig to be pushed so it becomes square to the curb. Narrower lowers = more clearance.

In my experience, torque twist can be eliminated by tuning shocks, position of shocks and weight. Although some poorly positioned links may cause torque twist issues I would say in general the link relationship more directly impacts axle steer.

The ckrc mod is good on the skid plate...why they the narrow the axle end of the lower links is beyond me because that make the geometry even worse. In another thread I said to do the ckrc skidplate mod to get the frame side links closer together and then on the axle side DO NOT DO WHAT CKRC DOES. Mount the lower links on the axle side as wide as possible to triangulate them as much as possible.

Yes it should look like a w from the top. You're on the right track...your not confused. You can see it on the rear of my tuber...it's hard to see it on the front because of the angle. You can also see that there is very little axle steer.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...r/tuber013.jpg

Do it on the front and on the rear. Something to keep in mind is that the stock springs hide the torque twist too because the shocks are fully extended. Droop set ups do the same thing, they hide bad link geometry because springs are fully compressed...a rig that has a partial droop setup..like in real life that doesn't have bad torque twist (twisting and pulling a tire off the ground when climbing) is set up well.

Here's a stock setup with the bump stops in the shocks to lower ride hight and spacers in the drivers rear and passenger front to hide torque twist...you can see the right tire lifting. (sub c's on front and rear axle)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxE9isX5zq4

Here's a good dual triangulated set up...remember this is partial droop, on a way steeper climb..and it lifts a tire a tad...but does not twist the front axle lifting up the front end and then tipping it over making it impossible to climb. That's what happens with the stock set up. On the climb in the previous video the dual triangulated set up walks up no problem all tires planted. These are stock rock lizards. Another thing to note is that the tranny is flipped in my tuber so really the drivers front tire should be lifting so in the vid..it's actually just normal droop to the contours of the rock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj3keSazSXs

Torque twist sucks because if it's twisting the front axle it's twisting the front end higher on climbs...tipping you over backwards. Weight on the front axle helps, droop setups help, fully extended shocks and preload on springs help..but they all hide the problem, they dont eliminate it or actually minimize it. A partial droop tells no lies and shows the real way your geometry works..or doesn't.

Try running big bore springs on stock shocks with the stock geometry and it's almost impossible to drive...everyone's wanting softer springs...well IMO you need to fix the geometry or you're going to have a rig that's less capable than with the stock "stiff" springs.

Thanks on all the Inputs. Tomorrow I will try to mount the lower links as far apart as possible. I guess by switching shock an link position is probably as far as possible. Than I will get some weights on the wheels an try again. Maybe I gonna gift the soft springs another shot. Maybe it works with this setup.

I really like this forum, a lot to learn and a chance to practice may english. I hope it is not too bad.

Greetings from the very cold Alps.

And on another note...torque twist is the main thing that should be fixed IMO. Axle steer isn't such a big deal when you can steer to compensate for it. The leverage that causes torque twist is the same geometry that causes axle steer....I think or at least it was for me. So you fix your link geometry and you fix both the problems. I'm no expert but this is how it all works out in my head and from my testing.

Hope that helped and didn't make you more confused :-(

Just a little confused. But from what I have read now, the "W" looking from the top is important.
Because I aint got a "W" know, I will change that tomorrow. Look how far I can go with to lower links. There is not really much I can do with different shock positions. So I go for the Links. We will see how it works out.
I really want to get the torque twist out, because on steep hills, I always lose traktion on the front axle because of the torque twist. The left tyre rises and the ax 10 slipps away to one side.

But I am not really sure if I can test it tomorrow, because it is freezing cool. -16C and ice rock :-(. And I really can't drive with gloves on. ;-) Need some snow chains :lol:

Have a look at one of my posts:

http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/showp...3&postcount=13

Works very good.

hey EeePee do you're links hit on the shock spring retainer ?
when i try to set mine up like that my links hit it a lot , but i am running high clearance derlin links that are thicker than the aluminum links.
this is how i have mine setup as of right now http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s...05-08_1932.jpg sorry for the crappy pic , couldn't find the camera

Hey Yoder316 you have to at least try out the driver's side upper on top of the TCS plate.

I'm also running my high clearance links backwards. So less of link is hitting the retainer.

Tonight I just put some more of the Axial shock limiters on my truck. I removed my fuel tubing and went with more of the stock pieces. I gained a little more travel in doing so. But before, to answer your question, yes they hit a little, and now they hit a little bit more. Am I worried? Not in the least.

8)