Civil Liberties

[RANOVRU]

Theres been a lot of mention of the topic for a while actually, with all of the politics/news stories going on. Since all definitions are open to perception/interpretation, Im curious to know what people on here think.

That being said, I will say try to forget or not refer to traditional (webster, wiki, etc) defs in regards to "liberties" for this discussion. The focus is what they mean to you and whether or not you think there are any actually left.


I will start with this, since it will inevitably be mentioned lets go ahead and mention it. The 4th amendment says...

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."


To simply state where I stand, I think "the right for people to be secure in their persons" was walked on long ago before our homes. Just as one example, people are ok with road checks in their city but dont want someone coming in their home during a statewide manhunt. Thing is, Ive been around road checks so long it seems normal. And it makes sense. How many MADD members would smack you across the face for even suggesting that road checks arent a good idea? Now we've given them (govt) the whole mile and, given particular circumstances, they want to come in my home. And Im inclinded to let them, "given particular circumstances".

Thats not to say I agree with the far right tin foil idea that the govt is going to send military into every home across the country with a baseless search, or that thats a good idea. Its a catch 22 really; security without liberty is no good, BUT what good is liberty without some security?

[Duuuuuuuude]

Considering the events in Boston, door to door searches are reasonable in that context. They didn't suspect that every person in Boston was harboring a terrorist, they just knew that there was one out there, somewhere, that needed to be apprehended post-haste. I don't think many people would disagree with that. Personally I think everything that federal and local law enforcement did to find the persons involved was warranted.

[crash]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

Considering the events in Boston, door to door searches are reasonable in that context. They didn't suspect that every person in Boston was harboring a terrorist, they just knew that there was one out there, somewhere, that needed to be apprehended post-haste. I don't think many people would disagree with that. Personally I think everything that federal and local law enforcement did to find the persons involved was warranted.

Exactly......

[romulus22]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

Considering the events in Boston, door to door searches are reasonable in that context. They didn't suspect that every person in Boston was harboring a terrorist, they just knew that there was one out there, somewhere, that needed to be apprehended post-haste. I don't think many people would disagree with that. Personally I think everything that federal and local law enforcement did to find the persons involved was warranted.

Yes. And I keep getting the feeling people think they no longer have any rights because of this. The cops are not going to just search random homes for random reasons from now on. It's almost pointless to worry the police are going to search your home for no reason. If you give them reason to search your home then yes you probably don't want them in there. But how many of you arguing the fact have that to worry about. If you aren't hiding anything what's the problem. Let them search. Find nothing and say have a good day and go on with your life. They are coming in one way or another why be an ass for no reason if you aren't hiding something.

I keep thinking Americans have never been as free as everyone thinks. Just a bunch of dogs allowed off the leash.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by romulus22

Yes. And I keep getting the feeling people think they no longer have any rights because of this. The cops are not going to just search random homes for random reasons from now on.

Its fear-mongering, nothing else. People don't have anything interesting to say and have a need to feel important, so they rant and rave about nothing.

One should always be wary of what people in power do, but it is in the majorities best interest that we remain a free society.

[gregrocks90046]

Originally Posted by RANOVRU

To simply state where I stand, I think "the right for people to be secure in their persons" was walked on long ago before our homes. Just as one example, people are ok with road checks in their city but dont want someone coming in their home during a statewide manhunt. Thing is, Ive been around road checks so long it seems normal. And it makes sense. How many MADD members would smack you across the face for even suggesting that road checks arent a good idea? Now we've given them (govt) the whole mile and, given particular circumstances, they want to come in my home. And Im inclinded to let them, "given particular circumstances"

You hit the nail on the head here, and are making the point for both sides. We have been effectively conditioned to accept road stops/checkpoints over several years. Now I believe we are slowly being conditioned to accept police/military/government officials to have access to our homes at any point.

And speaking of civil liberties, what are you, romulus, and myself going to do when someone comes to take our dogs? Don't say it's far fetched or 'tin foil hat'. Major cities across the states have already confiscated dogs just like ours and killed them. What would you do?

[ROWDY RACING]

Originally Posted by gregrocks90046

And speaking of civil liberties, what are you, romulus, and myself going to do when someone comes to take our dogs? Don't say it's far fetched or 'tin foil hat'. Major cities across the states have already confiscated dogs just like ours and killed them. What would you do?

Have to pry my dogs from my cold dead hands, I would give up my guns first.

[razors 33]

What breed of dog?

Pitpull or rottie?

[gregrocks90046]

Originally Posted by razors 33

What breed of dog?

Pitpull or rottie?

Not the point. Could be a poodle. Whichever breed the powers decide to ban.

[gregrocks90046]

Originally Posted by ROWDY RACING

Have to pry my dogs from my cold dead hands, I would give up my guns first.

Again, points proven for both sides.

[ROWDY RACING]

Originally Posted by gregrocks90046

Again, points proven for both sides.

So your comparing dogs and guns now?

[gregrocks90046]

Originally Posted by ROWDY RACING

So your comparing dogs and guns now?

Is that what you really think I'm doing? C'mon.

[ROWDY RACING]

Originally Posted by gregrocks90046

Is that what you really think I'm doing? C'mon.

I was hoping not.

[TraxFD]

We need someone from Boston to chime in and give us a first hand account of how The Man went about the searches. I am in agreement with most people here, if I dont have anything to hide just be curtious and then they can go on there way. Just like the full body scanners at the airports. But my concern and it seems others where is the line and when will it get there. I read (so take it for what its worth) that the citizens of Boston were ordered to stay in there homes. Isnt that kind of order Martial Law?

[gregrocks90046]

Unfortunately, it has come to this-
DISCLAIMER- The following comment below is not directed to any particular person in this thread or on RCC. Thank you!

My point is that how some folks are ok with road checks, home searches, gun seizure, etc. But are not ok with having their dogs taken, gays in scouts, whatever and whatever. There is always a line for everyone that shouldn't be crossed. That line is just different for everybody. It isn't restricted to a political side or moral belief. Nobody wants shit taken from them. Rights, civil liberties, guns, dogs, or being a gay scout.

[gregrocks90046]

Originally Posted by TraxFD

We need someone from Boson to chime in and give us a first hand account of how The Man went about the searches. I am in agreement with most people here, if I dont have anything to hide just be curtious and then they can go on there way. Just like the full body scanners at the airports. But my concern and it seems others where is the line and when will it get there. I read (so take it for what its worth) that the citizens of Boston were ordered to stay in there homes. Isnt that kind of order Martial Law?

If you have nothing to hide or not isn't the point.

[TraxFD]

Originally Posted by gregrocks90046

If you have nothing to hide or not isn't the point.

What is the point?

To let them come in whenever they deem it a "public safety" issue?
To let them feel they can stop you and ask if you are a citizen at a checkpoint?
To let them conduct an illegal DUI checkpoint?

I dont think you read my post. I said I would be nice and let them do it. But there is a point that we as Americans need to say enough. How long until it comes to everyone is guilty until proven otherwise? I thought it was the other way around. I feel we are at a tipping point. As I am, with my thoughts. When does my security as a whole override my liberties? How long until the Government decides they can protect me better than I can? If we are not suspects of a crime then leave us alone and let us be. We are the few, without anything to hide, so stop treating us like we do.

Food for thought.

[gregrocks90046]

Originally Posted by TraxFD

What is the point?

To let them come in whenever they deem it a "public safety" issue?
To let them feel they can stop you and ask if you are a citizen at a checkpoint?
To let them conduct an illegal DUI checkpoint?

I dont think you read my post. I said I would be nice and let them do it. But there is a point that we as Americans need to say enough. How long until it comes to everyone is guilty until proven otherwise? I thought it was the other way around. I feel we are at a tipping point. As I am, with my thoughts. When does my security as a whole override my liberties? How long until the Government decides they can protect me better than I can? If we are not suspects of a crime then leave us alone and let us be. We are the few, without anything to hide, so stop treating us like we do.

Food for thought.

No, I agree and read your post. My post was just my way of agreeing with you.

[vonclod]

Originally Posted by TraxFD

What is the point?

To let them come in whenever they deem it a "public safety" issue?
To let them feel they can stop you and ask if you are a citizen at a checkpoint?
To let them conduct an illegal DUI checkpoint?

How long until it comes to everyone is guilty until proven otherwise? I thought it was the other way around. I feel we are at a tipping point. As I am, with my thoughts. When does my security as a whole override my liberties? How long until the Government decides they can protect me better than I can? If we are not suspects of a crime then leave us alone and let us be. We are the few, without anything to hide, so stop treating us like we do.

Food for thought.

it seems like you are guilty until proven innocent in the eyes of many leo,s, they think your guilty and they just have to find out what we did..not necasarily talking about the courts as there is some form of due process but when dealing with many leo,s.. anything goes, and then when it goes bad get quietly swept under some rug..imo

[Duuuuuuuude]

I didn't realize DUI checkpoints were a bad thing. I'm all for it.