2013 Rules

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by Curcal

The reason why this question came to my mind was because this was another way to look at the controversial 2012 BOTW "cave gate" that I judged all day long.

That will forever live on in infamy.

[Curcal]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

That will forever live on in infamy.

You made the call And we stuck with it all day. I think it was the right call. Which makes the current quandary interesting. If we could drive under and possibly hit the gate while driving under it how are we not hitting it on the over hanging wall ride gate?

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by PaloAltoK5

The horizontal distance between two gate was about 8" in person.

I'll put this as clearly possible. If you take a string and connect the two cones/balls keeping the string on the rock is it 16" or greater? If yes, it is a legal gate.

Don't get caught up with floating, it doesn't apply in your gates scenario. The intent of the gate was to force you up the vertical wall in some way to clear the gates cleanly, so if the distance along the rock is 16" or greater it's legal.

I hope this helps, Fish will back me on this, and yes, I'm on the Rules Committee and I was a marshall/judge at BOTW as well.

You have 2 issues not 1.

If the gate is measured correctly it appears to be legal width, the problem start when drivers try to drive on a different angle than the gate is measured. From the photos it appears impossible to drive the line closer to horizontal.

As a judge I would have call it a penalty, and as a course designer I would have drawn a chalk line in the cave and not put a judge in that position.

Line 1 I would not penalize
Line 2 I would penalize because 4 tire did not travel between the gates

[Curcal]

So the 16" are measured at the angle of axle passing through the gate?
Good way to look at it.
When ever I set gates like this I always set the upper gate at a point where there's no issue. The real obstacle is the lower gate upper gate out of play.

[Calderwood]

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

You have 2 issues not 1.

If the gate is measured correctly it appears to be legal width, the problem start when drivers try to drive on a different angle than the gate is measured. From the photos it appears impossible to drive the line closer to horizontal.

As a judge I would have call it a penalty, and as a course designer I would have drawn a chalk line in the cave and not put a judge in that position.

Line 1 I would not penalize
Line 2 I would penalize because 4 tire did not travel between the gates

I agree. Line two is essentially straddling the gate.

[Olle P]

Originally Posted by Grandmasboy

... In the case of the gate in question, since the lower gate marker was the one creating the obstacle, and the upper gate marker was not a factor, the upper marker could have been moved further away to make an extra wide gate.

Moving the upper marker further away may have created a passable route on the top...

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Line 1 I would not penalize
Line 2 I would penalize because 4 tire did not travel between the gates

Why not just define "between" (while passing the gate) as "along the straight ground contour line between the markers"?

Otherwise if between the markers there's a rift or a ridge one could argue that the passage isn't "between", but rather "above" or "below" the gate.

[PaloAltoK5]

Originally Posted by Hardline

I don't get it. If I have two balls 8" apart, but a big rock ridge between them, the string connecting them while touching the rock might be 16" long. But the gate isn't 16" wide.

There needs to 16" between the physical gates, it can be a combination of horizontal and vertical. So, no, you can't trace over the top of a rock to get the 16". I only used a string in the example for a reference, you can eyeball that gate and see it's over 16", unless you look straight down on a 90 degree. It looks to me to be closer to 20-24 inches wide, but the over hang confused some people.

Sigh, it's not that hard people, stop looking for gray areas to bend the rules to your advantage. Anyways, drive your toy trucks guys, and try to have fun doing it!

[T3rry]

Hey guys, i have a question about a question ... this one just does not compute with me..



IMO, the correct answer is yes, they should be awarded progress, however unless they get all 4 tires through, they will be given a gate penalty... Technically progress only requires 1 tire from each axle to go between the balls, so they have progressed the gate, however it's not a clean progress yet.. if they were in this position and drove straight over one of the balls, they would be awarded progress at that point? and at what point? when their tires break the plane of the balls sideways? it just doesn't make much sense... they finally get progress by exiting the gate sideways? but dont get progress at this point? also, what if this is the finish and they time out? DNF? i would think gate penalty but still course completion as they did progress the gate, but not by definition of "clean".

[ROWDY RACING]

You are wrong. Cannot have progress clean or with a gate penalty if your still in the gate.

[T3rry]

Originally Posted by ROWDY RACING

You are wrong. Cannot have progress clean or with a gate penalty if your still in the gate.

so if the driver drives straight over the ball in front of him, straddling, no touching... at what point is it considered a progressed but uncleared gate?


the way i read it, 1 tire from each axle though a gate is a progress.




1.10 - Progress bonus (-2 progress point): shall be awarded to drivers for each gate after it has been cleared during the attempt of a course. All gate penalties are assessed and given before a progress bonus is awarded. Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate. To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty, all four tires must pass completely through the gate during the same attempt and in the intended course direction (See Illustration A). Progress points are deducted from the total course score. Once a driver has pointed out, no further Progress points will be awarded. (See 1.5 for examples of Gate penalties)

[Bc Paints]

Car is still in the gate, no progress, no penalty................yet

[T3rry]

Originally Posted by Bc Paints

Car is still in the gate, no progress, no penalty................yet

same question, if the driver decides to straddle out of it.. at what point is it considered a progress and penalty?

[Curcal]

Originally Posted by PaloAltoK5

stop looking for gray areas to bend the rules to your advantage. Anyways, drive your toy trucks guys, and try to have fun doing it!

My question wasnt brought up to bend rules to my advantage as a driver or course builder. My inquiry was to clear up confusion so course builders are aware of what they are doing when they set gates. This one worked out, but you all know how people get sometime over the stupidest $#!+.

[Olle P]

Originally Posted by T3rry

... if they were in this position and drove straight over one of the balls, they would be awarded progress at that point? and at what point?

If the truck from this position first goes straight to the side, leaving the gate markers, there's a 10p penalty for hitting one marker.

Continue on, as I've understood the rules:
If it then turns "up", in the gate's travel direction, so that all four wheels are past the extended line of the gate it's cleared and progress is called.

[P3NGU1N]

I think the only time we have called that "progress" was on a finish gate when time ran out but driver was still dinged a gate penalty on the call. If the driver didn't have the points to take the extra 10 then they got no progress for the gate.

I do understand what you are trying to say though. I think the reason it not being called progress in that situation is that the gate is not officially cleared at that time. Driver must get the other 2 tires through or take the gate penalty before the gate can be called cleared.

[T3rry]

Originally Posted by P3NGU1N

I think the only time we have called that "progress" was on a finish gate when time ran out but driver was still dinged a gate penalty on the call. If the driver didn't have the points to take the extra 10 then they got no progress for the gate.

I do understand what you are trying to say though. I think the reason it not being called progress in that situation is that the gate is not officially cleared at that time. Driver must get the other 2 tires through or take the gate penalty before the gate can be called cleared.

see that's what i would like to clarify, as far as i knew, the 2 things were always separate (although related)...

a progressed gate is one where one tire from each axle goes between the balls... at that point, it's a progress. the driver can move on to the next gate and is awarded -2 points...

a cleared gate, however, always includes a progress, but id different, in being that the driver either gets the entire truck between the balls for a clear... or does not get the entire truck including all 4 tires through and it's "progressed" but not "Cleared", resulting in a 10 point penalty.

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by Bc Paints

Car is still in the gate, no progress, no penalty................yet

Originally Posted by T3rry

same question, if the driver decides to straddle out of it.. at what point is it considered a progress and penalty?

In the middle of the course with clock still running the driver has to move or you will get a DNF 40 minus progress.


Once you leave the gate and did not get ALL 4 tire through after making progress its a penalty.


If its the last gate then...the course must be completed


4.8 - Course Completion: The course is finished once the last gate is completed and progress has been awarded (see rule 1.10)



If your sitting there in the last gate then its not completed.

[T3rry]

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

In the middle of the course with clock still running the driver has to move or you will get a DNF 40 minus progress.


Once you leave the gate and did not get ALL 4 tire through after making progress its a penalty.


If its the last gate then...the course must be completed


4.8 - Course Completion: The course is finished once the last gate is completed and progress has been awarded (see rule 1.10)



If your sitting there in the last gate then its not completed.

Ok, but what's considered "completed" if the driver strattles the ball and basically drives straight to the side in this pic.?

[Hardline]

You guys are all expressing opinions but not acknowledging the explicit written rule:

"Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate."

The car in the sketch clearly meets that requirement. No where in that quoted sentence does it say "unless...".

For your opinions to be right (I believe they are), the rules have a hitch that should probably be corrected. At the very least the test should be changed because a technically right answer is called wrong.

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by T3rry

Ok, but what's considered "completed" if the driver strattles the ball and basically drives straight to the side in this pic.?

When you only answer half the questions on a test would you consider it completed?

Originally Posted by Hardline

You guys are all expressing opinions but not acknowledging the explicit written rule:

"Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate."

The car in the sketch clearly meets that requirement. No where in that quoted sentence does it say "unless...".

For your opinions to be right (I believe they are), the rules have a hitch that should probably be corrected. At the very least the test should be changed because a technically right answer is called wrong.

Only if you consider going half way through a gate to be completed.


For the sake of argument lets agree to disagree. Would this make you happy?



1.10 - Progress bonus (-2 progress point): shall be awarded to drivers for each gate after it has been cleared during the attempt of a course. All gate penalties are assessed and given before a progress bonus is awarded. Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate, and the vehicle has completely left the gate. To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty, all four tires must pass completely through the gate during the same attempt and in the intended course direction (See Illustration A). Progress points are deducted from the total course score. Once a driver has pointed out, no further Progress points will be awarded. (See 1.5 for examples of Gate penalties)