MAPP Gas Being Phased Out

[SMR 510RR]

So I am starting to get all the stuff together to start brazing and after doing some reading I found out that MAPP gas is being phased out. It is being replaced by "Max Power Propylene" or "MAPP/Pro" depending on who is selling it. The new gasses burn much colder and I am wondering what my best bet is as far as fuel.

Temps:

Propane: 3450F
Max Power Propylene: 3600F
MAPP: 5301F

So the new gas is not much better than propane...

[Robbob]

"MAPP'' has been gone a while now ....

On 31 April 2008 the Petromont Varennes plant closed its methylacetylene/propadiene crackers. As they were the only North American plant making MAPP gas, indeed the only legal supplier of trademarked MAPP gas in the world, this caused a widescale shortage/death/crash, and many substitutes were introduced by the companies who had repackaged the Dow and Varennes product(s) - most of these subsitutes are propylene, like MAP//Pro [1] from BernzOmatic, some are mixtures with higher hydrocarbons or with other ingredients like acetone. Many of these work just about acceptably in gas/air torches, but none work as well as MAPP in gas/oxygen torches

Ive been using the Benzo stuff for quite a while now and havrent had a single probelm with it. Well atleast for building frames and things it works out fine.

[SMR 510RR]

Originally Posted by Robbob

"MAPP'' has been gone a while now ....





Ive been using the Benzo stuff for quite a while now and havrent had a single probelm with it. Well atleast for building frames and things it works out fine.

Thanks,
I saw that same article later but wanted to make sure before getting some that I was getting the right stuff.

[runout_mick]

Originally Posted by SMR 510RR

Temps:

Propane: 3450F
Max Power Propylene: 3600F
MAPP: 5301F

So the new gas is not much better than propane...

Around here the propylene seems to cost twice as much as the propane. Is it worth the extra cost just to get the slight temp increase? Do I need to move to oxy/acetylene? I'm looking to braize steel w/ silv and flux.

[vw_thing]

There is no reason you can't silver braze steel with propane. That 150* won't make much difference. Keep in mind that the flame control is not near as nice as acetylene, MAPP, or propylene because propane loves to spread out.

As a correction to the original post, 5300*F is for a neutral MAPP/oxygen flame. It never burned hotter in atmosphere than the new "Max Power Propylene" stuff (~3600*F). Now, if you can find a gas that burns at 5300*F in the atmosphere without a near-nuclear explosion, you could be about as rich as the guy who figures out how to weld aluminum to steel.

[fred0000]

Originally Posted by vw_thing

There is no reason you can't silver braze steel with propane. That 150* won't make much difference. Keep in mind that the flame control is not near as nice as acetylene, MAPP, or propylene because propane loves to spread out.

As a correction to the original post, 5300*F is for a neutral MAPP/oxygen flame. It never burned hotter in atmosphere than the new "Max Power Propylene" stuff (~3600*F). Now, if you can find a gas that burns at 5300*F in the atmosphere without a near-nuclear explosion, you could be about as rich as the guy who figures out how to weld aluminum to steel.

you CAN weld aluminum to steel, i've seen it a long time ago on TV, there was this really tall cruise ship, and to keep it from tipping over the top portion was all aluminum, they even showed the weld seem.

http://www.esabna.com/us/en/educatio...m-to-Steel.cfm

anyway. good luck with the original topic.

[monkeyracer]

Now I am a little confused. I thought forever everyone said use MAPP; don't even try it with propane because it will take way longer, but now with Map/Pro being the "best" option next to welding, and only a few degrees more than the propane, will the Map/Pro just take forever to heat the joint up?
Will a propane torch head work on the Map/Pro bottles?

[vw_thing]

Originally Posted by monkeyracer

Now I am a little confused. I thought forever everyone said use MAPP; don't even try it with propane because it will take way longer, but now with Map/Pro being the "best" option next to welding, and only a few degrees more than the propane, will the Map/Pro just take forever to heat the joint up?
Will a propane torch head work on the Map/Pro bottles?

There is no real change between MAPP and the new stuff. MAPP was a copyrighted brand name, but the factory no longer produces it. So other companies have taken up the slack, with a slightly different formula and name but the same general idea. It is unsafe to mix a torch head meant for propane with a MAPP/MPS bottle. New MPS and MAPP are fully interchangeable.

The main thing most people miss is the distinction between MAPP in atmosphere and oxygen. There is a huge difference. MAPP in atmosphere gives a slightly hotter flame than propane, and it gives a huge increase in the BTU value over propane due to the more potent gases (mostly propylene). So while the temperature difference is negligible, the output is significantly better. Now oxy/MAPP is a completely different critter. That gives you the lovely 5300*F flame, with a BTU approaching oxy/acetylene, and a fine point for accurate heating. It is acceptable for light cutting and welding along with most brazing jobs.

In a nutshell: propane and MAPP/MPS can both be used to braze without oxygen, but it isn't easy. MAPP will be quicker and prettier than propane. Propane, MAPP, propylene, acetylene, and a number of other gases can all be combined with oxygen to braze, weld, or cut metal of any thickness you care to use. The oxygen bottle is considered "ideal" because it takes very little time to heat the steel and melt the bronze/silver, and the flame is highly controlled both in size and intensity (note that the temperature is constant for each gas). Getting straight propane or MAPP to properly heat the steel and melt/wick the braze is an exercise in frustration, but it can be done.

Hopefully that is at least as clear as mud.

I've seen those bimetallic inserts before. They are ideal for production work, but the chemical bonding process isn't exactly something that can be done in a regular shop. Maybe that was a poor analogy.

[irishgunslinger1]

oxy/ acetylene is the only way to go in my book.. much hotter and more controllable than any mapp gas combo..

[monkeyracer]

I appreciate the helpful response, and it should help with anyone searching map/pro or even mapp. (Thanks for not simply posting telling me to search)

I'm just getting ready to finally do some brazing on my scale project, and want to make sure I am not wasting time or money with the stuff.

[vw_thing]

Originally Posted by monkeyracer

I appreciate the helpful response, and it should help with anyone searching map/pro or even mapp. (Thanks for not simply posting telling me to search)

I'm just getting ready to finally do some brazing on my scale project, and want to make sure I am not wasting time or money with the stuff.

The odd thing about searching is that it is just as easy to get the wrong answer. For example, googling burn temperatures for MAPP gas.

You'll be just fine with a regular MAPP torch, particularly with the new swirl flame. It isn't quite the same point-and-dip process as oxy/acetylene, but shouldn't take too much time to learn.

[Big Bill]

Ha Ha I read in a thread on here a month or so ago about the Mapp gas phase out. I ran out to my local Ace hardware to scoop up their remaining Mapp gas units so I wouldnt get caught short for future builds. So just the other day Iam out in the shop and go to move my treasured Mapp bottles and I happen to read the bottle, and its the new Mapp/Pro gas . I then look at the bottle that I have been using for the last 6 months and its a Mapp/Pro bottle also. No worries thought it works just fine as far as enough heat is concerned. All I know is that it will get the 3/16 tube I use RED hot pretty quick if Iam careful. Have fun its a blast to braze things up for a project.

[Big Mike]

Originally Posted by irishgunslinger1

oxy/ acetylene is the only way to go in my book.. much hotter and more controllable than any mapp gas combo..

Definitely. If you can afford the entry fee, oxygen/acetelyne is the way to go. It's also much more versatile than the little bottles w/ a head on them, you can cut as well as braze with the right tip. Hit the local pawn shops if you're on a budget, you never know. I've seen O/A rigs in the pawn shop on many an occaision.

I'm lucky, I inherited my Victor torch from my dad when he upgraded to a big setup like you'd see on an oil rig.

I finished up my last project with a MAPP bottle because I ran out of O2 late on Friday nite (no welding supply open until Monday morning) and I sure did miss my real torch. MAPP seems like a pain in the butt once you're used to a real oxygen/acetelyne setup...

[ernie28ernie]

Over here in old Germany MAPP Gas is in supply

Look here:
http://shop.ebay.de/i.html?_nkw=roth....c0.m270.l1313

Yours,
Martin

[bob1961]

i had an old black bottle of plain ol propane hanging around and used it up on brazing my tube frame just fine , might have taken 5 seconds longer fer each joint i had to braze ......bob

....

[R/CMaxximus5.0]

Originally Posted by vw_thing

It is unsafe to mix a torch head meant for propane with a MAPP/MPS bottle.

Why? I do this all the time because I don't want to burn up my old Mapp gas to light my charcoal grill, etc. ( I use a torch to light the grill- works great) I only use the Mapp when I fab. I also have worked with plumbers who would switch from propane to mapp with the same torch head.

[monkeyracer]

Originally Posted by R/CMaxximus5.0

Why? I do this all the time because I don't want to burn up my old Mapp gas to light my charcoal grill, etc. ( I use a torch to light the grill- works great) I only use the Mapp when I fab. I also have worked with plumbers who would switch from propane to mapp with the same torch head.

Most Mapp heads show that they work for propane, but not usually the other way around.

[murky123]

acetylene has a higher flame temperature (3160 °C, 5720 °F)

im going for a oxy-acetylene setup.

10, 20, 30, 40 litre tanks are no problem for me to get..