agreed. side hilling is one area i haven't really worked on with my rig yet.

speaking of inclines and sidehilling has anyone thought about knuckle weights for the creeper? i was looking at different options to add weight and saw the following thread (http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/team-losi-comp-crawler/280887-knuckle-weights-offical-thread.html). looks like something that could provide huge advantages. if i had a mill i'd look at making a set for my creeper. damn the lack of a machine shop in the basement!!! :cry:

still feel like i have too much TT
 

so i saw lazy's thread and it got me thinking. i don't have any other crawlers to compare to but i still feel like i'm getting too much TT. i'm looking for suggestions of things to try. when under power the right front does try to lift up. on my traction board the right front is lifts to the point it is barely touching. so help i've attached a bunch of pics of my setup. could it be that i need to raise the mounting point for my front top links on the chassis end?

you need stiffen (loken at the front) the left front shock a little more the the right so it is trying to put more pressure on it the the other side so in theory it keeps it down
and looking at the back stiffen the left rear so it trys to shove that front corner down some
i have my front links rasised front he stck points on Adams plate mine ar close in front but high up and try to lower you rear links on the chassis

sorry asw27x but you dont want to do any thing to the stiff nest of the rear spring, (althought i would think about putting a little bit stiffer spring on the fronts) TT is all about link geo. the rear links could be sprea apart a little more and if im right from what i heard rmdw say is you dont want to raise the front upper links i think you have to lower them but you have them as low as you can get them. personaly i would talk to RMDW to find it out but thats what i would start with.

venomcrawlerdud is right its about link geo you want the front uppers as low as can be on the axel and as high as you can on the chassis. on the rear you want to be spread apart as much as you can and on the axle high up and and on the chassis low. i have very minimal TT soft springs in the rear and super soft springs in the front 25wt oil in all 4. the whole stiff spring in corner is just a bandaid fix and I think it affects the rig in in a bad way.

i'm curious if anyone has a short video of their rig and how much TT they have? given this is my only crawler i don't have a comparison point. i'll try to do the same later tonight.

i think my rear links are probably in pretty good shape (i can't spread them much more given the saddle pack i run on the rear axle). i was more curious about my front end. i've looked at other threads and many people have the same link placement on the uppers where they meet the chassis. this is why i'm wondering what a "touch of TT" looks like. i think i will try moving the mounts further up the chassis to see if that helps.

venomcrawlerdud, my front springs are pretty soft so i might swap them out for a little stiffer set.

hey jebster i think your rear links are fine where they are at, what you should try is raising the chassis mounting points on your front upper links...if you figure it out let us know and good luck bro"thumbsup"

did u look at my set up front links are high on the chassis,,,,,, a touch of tt is lets say when your going up something steep like the incline board,,,the body will slightly twist (to the left) but the front right tire will NOT come off the ground and when you flex with the left front it the right front wants to come up but not much thats minimal tt. you will never get rid of tt but you can reduce it.

Springs and shocks dont control Torque Twist,,I dont know how many times Ive said this in this forum...link geometry is the whole key to limiting the amount of torque roll you get from the ring and pinions.

HEY,,,you were listening. Good write...and you are completely right.

Jeff,,your front upper links are too low at the chassis. They need to be raised about 3/8" - 1/2" from what it looks like in the pics.

Stiffer springs will only accomplish one thing...make your rig stiffer...or looser. Like Derrek said...link geometry.

Links are just about the hardest part to tune in my book. The links have to be long enough to give good articulation but short enough to control the axles without flexing. The lower links are almost always longer and react slower than the shorter uppers,,but the uppers are the ones that are in direct influence from axle torque roll. The link geometry I run is for 100%+ anti-squat. When my rig is getting good traction my chassis rises due to torque roll from both axles transmitted through the upper links.

Right now when your front axle is under load...front wheels trying to get traction...the axle housing rotates rearward at the top,,pinion yoke downward...with your links low like they are the chassis gets pushed down which causes the axle to rise.

i agree and know that shocks and springs don't help TT. i did see that by front end is way to soft which is something i needed to fix already which is why i wanted to handle that with the stiffer shocks.

everyone's assessment that i need to raise the front upper chassis mounting point confirms what i thought (thomas, thanks for the more specific 3/8 - 1/2" recommendation) and i'm going to make some changes.

by the way, is there any way to post video clips via the forum or does it have to be done with links to services like youtube?

oh yeah, here is a pic of my rig with my son's maxstone 16 that santa brought. my creepers little brother! :) looking forward to upgrading it with a MVP chassis from AB Design's (thanks adam) and using the things i've learned about link geometry on this thread to improve his rig.

Glad to help Jeff...you cant embed video in te Creeper forum,,only in the video forums or chitchat forum,,,here youll have to post links

i have a video in this tread that shows my tt. it from speedy's creep-o-orama thread. it shows mine tt (click on the picture and it will take you to my photobucket page...).
http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/o...h_100_0651.jpg

Dude, honestly i'm not seeing your axle lift off the board... All I see is the body torquing to the left, which will happen in ALL shaftys - it's inherent in its design and you'll NEVER eliminate all of it...

Have you tried raising the rear upper links a bit (1/2" or so) on the chassis side? That should give you a more neutral Squat setting in the rear, which might help keep the front planted better...

I used to have all stock black springs in mine until I went brushless, then I HAD to change to stiffer springs in the rear because the body roll was Terrible! It actually helped tremendously... But I see you already have heavier springs in the rear on yours, so your solution will definately lie in your link geo...

awsome pair

so i made a mod to my chassis to raise the front upper links chassis mounting point. haven't done much testing yet but i hope it helps to further reduce TT.

Nice that should help good job"thumbsup"

It looks like you also mounted your rear upper links lower at the chassis. Your previous pics showed them mounted in the higher position before. That move gained me 2* on the board.

heres how high mine is on the front uppers

http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/pictu...ictureid=15518

suprised you notice. yes, i did lower them based on what i saw in your post. i hope it gets me that little extra i need.

i just wanted to post a couple pics of my son's exceed maxstone 16. if you have ever seen a video of it in stock form you know that it has ridiculously bad torque twist. using a chassis from AB designs to get more options for link geometry we modified it to spread/raise the rear upper links at the axle and lower the front uppers at the chassis. the end result - zero torque twist! "thumbsup" it is completely gone. i'm still running the softest spring they provided with the kit all around. it is actually a pretty fun rig now.

so, if anyone that questioned the power of correct link geometry i can say it is all true. i want to thank everyone on this forum for the advice they've provided.

the first pic is the before picture of the stock geometry. the next couple are of the modified rig.

it's been a long time since i've done much with my creeper (busy with my son's maxstone 16 and my new xr10). after seeing adam's post about running the steering drag link under the axle i was motivated to update my creeper. first off i finally got rid of the front axle diff lock mechanism. i never had an issue with it but i didn't use it much either. so, out it goes and in went an flm locker. while i was working on the front end i made up a protector for the servo. removing the diff lock servo on the front axle gave me room to mount a small lipo in it's place for when i really want the front end weight bias (i'm keeping the rear axle saddle pack mount for a more even weight balance and long running times). i still need to make up a top plate to protect the battery but i ran out of time last night.

the drag link under the axle has me a little worried about a snag point but i can still get the full steering angle (45+) with this setup. i can't wait to get it on the rock and give it a try.

a few pics:

no pics (it was getting close to dark) but i took my creeper out and got it on the rocks to try out the UTA steering mod. the rock piles i run on are pretty jagged so i thought it was a good test. i still need more time but after running for around 40 minutes i didn't notice any hangs on the drag link. seems like it was pretty clear. the servo didn't get hot at all so i don't think the angle of the steering link was causing issues.

looks like a setup that i'm likely. i'll try to get some action shots on the rocks soon.

jebster do you think that the servo armor and the batt armor will hang up on approach. when you desend down to a verticle climb?I noticed when I ran my servo up front like yours I had this problem.

the battery is pretty far back so i don't think that is an issue. the servo could be a problem depending on the rocks. it does sit behind the front line of the tires so if the rock face is pretty flat it works fine. but if the rock juts out it could catch. only time will tell if it causes me too many problems. given i don't comp i'm more concerned with smashing up my expensive servo than getting the perfect line to drive! :)

I feel ya

i was just on towerhobbies and was scanning through for some creeper parts. looks like a lot of parts are discontinued. i haven't check other sites yet so it might be just a tower thing.

no a lot of the creeper parts are discontinued but the reason is that venom racing is redesigning some things on the creeper to help fix alot of the problems that people were having.

thats good news. it was interesting which parts were listed as discontinued: wheel hexes (which i agree need work) but so was the transmission case. i haven't heard many people having issues with that.

ive seen alot of people cracking and bracking off the tabes on the cover

had some time yesterday to get my creeper on my backyard rock pile and took some pics of it in action. i was keeping an eye on the uta drag link to see if it was catching. i even pushed it across some pretty jagged rocks to try and get it caught. no issues so far. i do catch the servo guard once in awhile but i can live with that.

i have to say i'm liking the way my creeper is performing. i recently got an xr10 and while i think it could be a more capable rig in the long run i'm still feeling more confident when i drive the creeper. only time will tell! :)

i have the BTL plate and i have a battery guard and it gets caught on stuff but thats what the 35c packs and the brood 35t motor are for that im putting in but the way it is right now its fine

i haven't cranked up the power on my yet (45t with 2s 10c pack) but i am considering going up to 3s. i would need to wire in the bec for my goat 3s esc to do that but it shouldn't be an issue.

not a big update. i finally upgraded to 3s and all i can say is wow! i know the difference in numbers between 2s and 3s but seeing it in action is impressive.
as part of the switch i finally got rid of the rear saddle pack plate. it worked well in some places and the run time was incredible but i found too many times have the even weight balance just didn't cut it.

i've also been absorbed with putting together a rock course in the back yard. have a few piles set up with plenty more rocks to spread between them.

here are some pics of my new rear axle set up and the rock course (with creeper for scale). the last pic is the pile i still need to move from another part of the yard to the crawler course.

anyone still having issues getting HR knuckles, c-hubs, rear lockouts? i found them!
 

there is a hobby shop near me that still has some in stock. their website is www.hobbyetc.com. i think he said there was at least 10 of each still in stock. just wanting to help people out.

no pics yet but i'll be upgrading my creeper this week.

got some tools for the workshop (bandsaw, belt sander, mini cutoff saw) and new parts for my creeper! nice father's day gifts!

after getting the lockouts and front c-hubs/knuckles installed i was having the same issue many people had with the stock creeper hexes sitting too deep on the axle pins. so, a quick spot on the new belt sander to thin them down and perfect fit.

a few pics of the equipment and the newly upgraded creeper:

a little update. i ran in my first comp two weekends ago and the creeper did well...at the start. i ran in sportsman so no dig. did great on the first course but going into the last gate had a little grinding in the rear axle. decided to give it a go on the second run but i was basically fwd. still did ok. we were only able to get in two courses but i pulled off first place. the creeper did well.

after taking the axle apart it was missing a tooth from the pinion. i guess something in the drivetrain had to break eventually.

i liked the sportsman runs enough that i pulled off the dig. need to make a few more tweaks based on how it run but i'm looking forward to the next comp!

nice one, good to see some more creepers on top!!"thumbsup"

looks like u have a great little workshop setup too.

my workshop has proven pretty convenient for working on my crawlers.

after the comp i decided to slightly change my front link setup. i'm also going to move my battery mount closer to the center of the axle to get it way from the tires as full steer.