Point Out/Time Out Question

[rob_b]

At our last comp we had two drivers who at the end of the day tied in total points. But all their course scores were also the same and they each timed out on the last three courses. The only difference was on the first course one of them pointed out while the other timed out.

Driver A
#1 - 36 - 6:32 - point out
#2 - 38 - 5:00 - time out
#3 - 38 - 7:00 - time out
#4 - 40 - 7:00 - time out

Driver B
#1 - 36 - 7:00 - time out (running total of 37pts not counting progress at time out)
#2 - 38 - 5:00 - time out
#3 - 38 - 7:00 - time out
#4 - 40 - 7:00 - time out

We have never ran across two drivers that went through so many tie breakers before. So I guess my question boils down to...

For a Tie Breaker
If two drivers make the same number of progressions is it better to point out or time out?

I have my opinion but would like some of yours

[Fishmaxx]

3.13 - Tie Scores:
• 3.13.1 – Nationals Style: In the event of a tie score the competitor with the lowest score on the final
course run is considered the winner. If both competitors are also ties of the final course then the second
to the last course run will be used, and so on.
• 3.13.2 – Optional: In the event of a tie score the competitor with the lowest time on all courses will be
chosen the winner over the other competitor(s) with the same score.

[Reflection]

These course #1,2,3 and 4...are those the courses or the tie breakers you speak of?

Driver B was at 37 at time. Was he in the gate or through it? How'd he get progress for a score of 36 after time was called?

[rob_b]

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

3.13 - Tie Scores:
• 3.13.1 – Nationals Style: In the event of a tie score the competitor with the lowest score on the final
course run is considered the winner. If both competitors are also ties of the final course then the second
to the last course run will be used, and so on.
• 3.13.2 – Optional: In the event of a tie score the competitor with the lowest time on all courses will be
chosen the winner over the other competitor(s) with the same score.

I know the tie breaking rules but this seems like a special case. Lets take the example to the extreme, both drivers can't make the first gate. The first driver has to take 4 repositions and points out in 45 seconds. Then the second driver spends the full time only making 5 reverses. This is a one course comp. Rule 3.13.1 is of no use because they both get a 40. Driver 1 spends 45 seconds on course and Driver 2 spends 5 minutes on course. So by rule 3.13.2 the driver who had to pick up their truck 4 times in 45 seconds did better than the driver who spent the whole time attacking the course fully under control?

Originally Posted by Reflection

These course #1,2,3 and 4...are those the courses or the tie breakers you speak of?

Driver B was at 37 at time. Was he in the gate or through it? How'd he get progress for a score of 36 after time was called?

Those are their final course scores and times. If you are counting progress points in on the fly their score at time out was 33.

[Reflection]

Originally Posted by rob_b

I know the tie breaking rules but this seems like a special case. Lets take the example to the extreme, both drivers can't make the first gate. The first driver has to take 4 repositions and points out in 45 seconds. Then the second driver spends the full time only making 5 reverses. This is a one course comp. Rule 3.13.1 is of no use because they both get a 40. Driver 1 spends 45 seconds on course and Driver 2 spends 5 minutes on course. So by rule 3.13.2 the driver who had to pick up their truck 4 times in 45 seconds did better than the driver who spent the whole time attacking the course fully under control?



Those are their final course scores and times. If you are counting progress points in on the fly their score at time out was 33.

How many tie breaker runs did you run them through?

We've had comps where we had to have 4 different tie breakers.

Push 'em...one will fall. 10 gates in 3 minutes,lowest score in 3 minutes is king....for the day.

[dpdsurf]

My opinion is that the time tie breaker is not that great if both drivers did not finish courses. Drive like a hack by hitting both gates, taking roll over touches, etc. and point out with time on the clock. Take your time and get a few reverses, skillfully upright your rig without a 5 pt rollover, but time out and you're the loser in this tie-break. Luckily the few times we have had drivers get the same score on all 3 courses they were far enough down in the standings. More than likely if it were to happen up towards the top of the standings both drivers are finishing the courses and therefore whoever finishes faster deserves it.

[rob_b]

Originally Posted by Reflection

How many tie breaker runs did you run them through?

We've had comps where we had to have 4 different tie breakers.

Push 'em...one will fall. 10 gates in 3 minutes,lowest score in 3 minutes is king....for the day.

We didn't run them through any tie breakers, I am only going through the scores after the fact. Maybe we can push 'em to failure next time. In this case it was for 11th and 12th... just wanting to know how the cards should fall.

[Fishmaxx]

The rules are not written for style points. If you can't finish a course its about getting as far as you can before the clock runs out. If 2x drivers can't get past the same gate its a tie regardless of how they got there.

Last year at Nationals about 50 drivers didn't get past GATE 3 (?) on the cables course.

They all tied.

It didn't matter who did it the prettiest

[rob_b]

Thanks for the clarifications guys, never did consider the tie. Our club breaks ties using the national style format. I guess in the future we can run an optional tie breaker course for anyone that wants to. Thanks again

[monkeyracer]

I think the time tie breaker should only matter if the finish gate is cleared. Otherwise it should be about # of progress gates cleared.

IF a situation arose where course design prevents any driver from finishing a course and they tie with another driver and this leaves them in contention for the top 5 (or 10 if your club does it) for the day, then let the tieing drivers compete in finals, lowest score wins.

Example if the above drivers were contending for 5th and 6th place before the final round and they were tied, let em both run, and the top 5 drivers get honors...

I want to clarify something with your example...

For round 1

Driver A was awarded 40 or more penalty points with 4 progress gates cleared in 6:32, so 36 points.

Driver B was only awarded 37 penalty points but only cleared one gate in the 7 minutes?

If that is what happened, then Driver B would actually have only scored 39 points. If both drivers cleared the same number of gates, what do you mean by (37pts before progress at time out)?

The way we do it here is this:

Award penalties during driver run. At either finish, time out or point out, deduct # of cleared gates + any bonus gates to get total score. Obviously time out or point out are 40 points max, so if they both cleared 4 gates they both get 36.

There should also be something said for judges rulings. If the judges want to call it one way or the other for your club that's their decision to make.

Again, tie breakers only really matter when the drivers are in contention for the top spots. If you do a series total, the tie won't last.