It's about F-ing time

[RANOVRU]

Who do you know in this world that is willing to work for free? What business or government program that you know of that is completely self sustaining (requires NO money to start or maintain)? Most volunteers aren't full time. Programs to help the needy MUST employ people....and to ensure that those employees don't become needy themselves, they are paid a salary.

Whether you like it or not, it takes money/goats/wampum (something of value) to survive in this world.

What in the world are you talking about? Im suggesting that people who need assistance work for it.

As it as right now, what obligations are there for someone who accepts welfare to have to repay it?? Is it not money thats "given" away??

Regardless of habbits, if people who requested welfare had to work 40hrs a week for it, it would naturally root out the people that so many of you are worried about (loafers). We (or YOU) need to realize that drugs and loafing do NOT nessessarily go hand in hand, just like a high pitched voice & homosexuality.

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

You sound like a dem trying to raise support for another way of spending more money. You got any idea how many are on welfare?? Now multiply the assumed $50 x (Im gonna guess upwards of 7 figures) and suddenly its not that cheap anymore.

Lets say we've got 1 million people on welfare, and we pay them $1500 (close to average in the USA if you include food stamps, unemployment, etc) a month to do whatever they're doing. That's $1.5 billion each month. $18b a year.

Making those million people take drug tests would cost $50m.

Now, say 20% (random number, the actual is probably less but how would we know for sure?) of them test positive for drugs and refuse to stop their habits or fail to maintain treatment. The get dropped from the program. Deduct the $50m for the drug tests, and we've just spent $250m a month less on welfare per month, or $3b a year.

Of course, those numbers don't include the cost of treatment that they would have to receive, but it also doesn't include the savings from not supplying medicaid to those that can't or won't work with the system.

edit: there are currently about 4 million people on general welfare, and about 50 million on medicaid.

 

[RANOVRU]

Charity is when you give because you feel like giving. The government does not give charity, it gives "assistance" or to use Obama-speak, "investments".


Since when did people on welfare have to pay it back in any way at all?


To collect the assistance, we all pay taxes. Don't pay your taxes, you go to jail. There's no charity anywhere in the system.


What about people that havent paid any real amount in taxes because of their poverty/income level, and are on welfare?


You're saying I should feel good about the government taking money from my pocket and giving it to drug users? If I wanted my money to go to the local drug dealers I'd just buy that shit myself.


No. No more than you should be happy about giving it to people that will go out and spend it on a flat screen, car paint, rims, or an over abundance of fast food. What are we doing about those people??



And think about this: Anyone who's serious about wanting to get off welfare isn't going to use, because they'll have to take a piss test if they get hired.


If anything that just reiterates the non-need for a test. I still say WORK is the best answer to weed out non-contributers, and it doesnt cost us anything.

Labor is the best "drug test" ever...

 

[JeremyH]

What in the world are you talking about?

Wow....do you even read what you type? I responded to your statement about why everyone is focused on money.
:roll:

Duuuude.....dont talk about money, he wants us to live with out it so those words are meaningless....:ror:

We (or YOU) need to realize that drugs and loafing do NOT nessessarily go hand in hand, just like a high pitched voice & homosexuality.

I dont have to realize shit. I never said that they go hand in hand. I do not have a problem with government assistance coming with stipulations. It already does! People receiving welfare are supposed to prove that they are looking for a job. Unfortunately, our government has understaffed this program and nobody checks up on any of these stipulations.

 

[RANOVRU]

Making those million people take drug tests would cost $50m.

Now take no drug tests, plus required labor to recieve assistance, equals ZERO cost.

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

Now take no drug tests, plus required labor to recieve assistance, equals ZERO cost.

There is always an expense. Somebody is going to have to organize that workforce, that means quite a few administration duties.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the labor thing you're talking about, and I see your point. I'm just arguing for mine at the same time. :mrgreen:

 

[RANOVRU]

Wow....do you even read what you type? I responded to your statement about why everyone is focused on money.
:roll:

Duuuude.....dont talk about money, he wants us to live with out it so those words are meaningless....:ror:

I dont need it. Unfortunately we are all forced to obtain it.

I wont judge you if you feel like its a nessessity J. However, I think youll find Duuude is no more a fan of the monetary system than me.

 

[JeremyH]

I still say WORK is the best answer to weed out non-contributers, and it doesnt cost us anything.

Wrong. Who do you suppose will watch over these work programs? Those people who are "employed" by them? The blind leading the blind type of thing? Yeah, that'll work out well....:roll:

 

[JeremyH]

I dont need it. Unfortunately we are all forced to obtain it.

I wont judge you if you feel like its a nessessity J. However, I think youll find Duuude is no more a fan of the monetary system than me.

Nobody is forced to do anything. You are more than welcome to grow your own food, make your own electricity and build your own car. By all means....give it a whirl and let us know how it turns out.

We have a monetary system because not everyone is good at doing all of that stuff. I am particularly good at one type of that work. I am paid to be good and do my work well. I pay others to do the shit that I am not so good at.

Ever bought yourself an RC part? Why didnt you build it from scratch?

 

[RANOVRU]

I dont have to realize shit. I never said that they go hand in hand. I do not have a problem with government assistance coming with stipulations. It already does! People receiving welfare are supposed to prove that they are looking for a job. Unfortunately, our government has understaffed this program and nobody checks up on any of these stipulations.

Thats not a stipulation and you know it. Its a cop out, nothing more.

Again, what obligation does one on welfare have to pay it back? Remember, we're talking about people who have probably paid little to none in taxes into the system.

Sounds more and more like "charity" to me....

 

[JeremyH]

Thats not a stipulation and you know it. Its a cop out, nothing more.

Why is it a cop out? Because NOBODY CHECKS!

Welfare/unemployment is assistance....not charity. As you have said, charity comes without stipulation.....welfare/unemployment come with (poorly regulated) stipulations.

This circular shit with you is getting old. :roll:

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

I am particularly good at one type of that work. I am paid to be good and do my work well. I pay others to do the shit that I am not so good at.

If you dedicated as much time towards something else, as much as you have towards your career, wouldn't you be better at it? Or were you born with the knowledge and experience you have now...

People can learn how to do different things. Things haven't always been so narrowly focused like they are today. Its not like there's always been "the food guy" and "the water guy" and "the shelter guy". People farmed, they built shit themselves, and their lives were truly just as good as they could physically make them. Now things are bought and a lot of that hands on knowledge and experience is dying off. Our lives currently, for a majority of people, are only as good as we can afford them to be.

 

[RANOVRU]

Nobody is forced to do anything. You are more than welcome to grow your own food, make your own electricity and build your own car. By all means....give it a whirl and let us know how it turns out.

We have a monetary system because not everyone is good at doing all of that stuff. I am particularly good at one type of that work. I am paid to be good and do my work well. I pay others to do the shit that I am not so good at.

Ever bought yourself an RC part? Why didnt you build it from scratch?

Youve got needs & wants muddled up sir.

I dont NEED an rc anymore than you do. Or a car for that matter.

I say Im being forced because the countries suppresed thinking like mine and sold people like you on what they need.

 

[RANOVRU]

If you dedicated as much time towards something else, as much as you have towards your career, wouldn't you be better at it? Or were you born with the knowledge and experience you have now...

People can learn how to do different things. Things haven't always been so narrowly focused like they are today. Its not like there's always been "the food guy" and "the water guy" and "the shelter guy". People farmed, they built shit themselves, and their lives were truly just as good as they could physically make them. Now things are bought and a lot of that hands on knowledge and experience is dying off. Our lives currently, for a majority of people, are only as good as we can afford them to be.

This....

 

[JeremyH]

Or were you born with the knowledge and experience you have now...

I have a particular talent at one type of work. I can try anything. When I was in school, I was quite good at physics and math.....not so good at history. Hence the degrees that I obtained and the field that I am in. "thumbsup"

Those people you talk about.....they performed their own health related procedures, correct? How long did they live?

 

[JeremyH]

Youve got needs & wants muddled up sir.

Where did I use either of those terms? I know the difference between the two. So, now you are saying people should only have the things they "need". If so, then get off your computer...:roll:

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

Those people you talk about.....they performed their own health related procedures, correct? How long did they live?

Most likely, though how long did anybody live back then? The medical field wasn't a shadow of what it is now.

 

[JeremyH]

Most likely, though how long did anybody live back then? The medical field wasn't a shadow of what it is now.

And you still think we should do everything ourselves?

When people focus their minds and energy on one subject, they become experts. "thumbsup"

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

This....

...in 10 years will result in this...

 

[ThinkTank]

1. That is a fallacy. Futhermore, you could replace "drugs" with a lot of other things that would fit that statement. Oh but because the fed has deemed them "illegal" that justifies the negative bias.

2. What about the successful ceo's/doctors/lawyers/business man/etc. who dont NEED them, they just like them occassionally?? Surely you arent comparing them to a meth head in a trailer???

Your point?
Like BJoe said:

I have much more of a problem with them using as I would a methhead, especially if their decisions affect how well somebody (employees, customers, patients, clients, ect) else can live their life.[/COLOR]

I don't feel safer knowing a crackhead or a drunk is handling my money... Let alone for the fun of it.
Just because the majority are in the mud, doesn't mean I have to accept it.