Another school shooting

[viper6171]

ya know right now every one of our founding fathers is rolling over in their respective graves .

i am not going to get on here and bicker back and forth or preach for one side or the other , those of you who know me know my views on this subject . unfortunately the world we live in is in a sad state of affairs for sure , yes we need to examine our practices for mental health care and the stigma that comes with it as well as our procedures and practices for raising our future generations . i am not going to propose that we beat our children to within an inch of there lives or anything like that but i was raised with a somewhat heavy hand ( spankings were earned and given as well as groundings ), it was once stated spare the rod and spoil the child ( i do believe this to be true ).

if we don't as a society change these two things we will continue down this ever tightening spiral all the way to the end . i have had criminals break into my house as a young man ( my mother was home alone by the way ) , and i have had mental illness rear it's head in my family as well ( my brother broke down and ended up committing suicide with a handgun ) both of these things did affect me and my views . i get irritated when a person says they can't take it anymore and they wish it was over , or when a person that has a crime committed against them and people say they were asking for it .

i agree with the person that said that we will not change the minds of those against , and they will not change the minds of those for . i have absolute sympathy for those who have lost loved ones to a senseless crime , i can also feel some sympathy for the person who has mental problems and commits these crimes ( simply for the fact that they weren't provided with the care they needed to help them ) .

i will say this i believe in the constitution and what it stands for , i believe in my country , and i support our military . our country is at a crossroads and the decisions we make today will dictate the future of our country good or bad .

 

[RANOVRU]

ronovru
you support gun bans, as do many others.

many of us on the other side of the spectrum do not support a ban.

you said we should walk the line, to decide who gets to own guns, and who shouldnt.

UNAILIENABLE RIGHTS!
Some gun owners dont want to have our rights removed for teh actions of a few.

peoples homes do get brokek into, peoples cars are jacked, honest people fall witness and victems to crime every day.

caring a gun makes you no less paranoid than carrinying a spare tire and car jack.


I agree with you, a all out ban will never happen in my life time.
guns and amunition will be regualted and taxed out of most peoples grasp

I have never said, nor will I ever say, Im in favor of bans on guns. My family and I own enough weapons to start a small war. I AM A GUN OWNER.

I am for regulation and restrictions to obtain. That is different than a ban. And its where most far right people disagree because they immediately translate regulation to mean ban.

You say you dont want your privileges stepped on because of a few bad apples. I really dont get that. Maybe it was my conservative upbringing or my military background, but the saying is well known that "it only takes a few bad apples to ruin the bunch".

Inevitably the instant response from the far right is that its in the constitution and cant be touched. Again we will always disagree here. I dont have all of the answers but as Ive said before taking no action equals no progress.

The only real issue that the right has offered up for sensible discussion is mental health, and thats a good topic that needs adressing. But even that will step on some toes and the far right acts as if they want no toes stepped on. Its a line that must be walked.

Your last statement is probably the most realistic tactic that the far left would try to use, and I do not agree with that method.

 

[C*H*U*D]

I have never said, nor will I ever say, Im in favor of bans on guns. My family and I own enough weapons to start a small war. I AM A GUN OWNER.

I am for regulation and restrictions to obtain. That is different than a ban. And its where most far right people disagree because they immediately translate regulation to mean ban.

It seems most people are so black and white on the subject that they fail to realize many agree with the statement above. Not all of us are extreme right or left.

I don't favor a ban...it's something I wholeheartedly disagree with. But I also feel something needs to be done to get a handle on what's going on.

I'm sorry but I totally disagree with being able to buy guns online. We all know how many scammers are on Ebay and Craigslist, but yet we are willing to turn a blind eye to online firearms sales?

On the other side of the coin, I totally disagree with those that say it's too difficult to regulate sales. We all need a drivers license, so why does everyone freak out about a firearms license? However I feel if you have that firearms license, you should be allowed to buy whatever weapon you choose.

Like I said before, I'm not what you would call a "Gun Guy". I've shot plenty of them, respect them and still own my 870 Wingmaster but I'm not an avid collector. I have no wish though to see anyone lose their guns, but I also don't see a problem with things being brought under control. I think that is a better first step than an outright ban.

 

[johnnyh66]

I'm in the same boat as RANOVRU and CHUD... compromise fellas... even a little would go a long way. "thumbsup"

 

[CREEPERBOB]

It all sounds good guys, the trouble is we have our goverment drowning us in "What they want to do" scenario's and as usuall it causes division.
I like mechanical devices, and really like the ones that go bang, and not so much when they go snap (RC's).
There is a bucket full of crap that has lead to where we are today, and the muzzle of a gun is the last place we see violence erupt from so we focus on that. We never consider the electrons in peoples brain that short circuit and through a long list of events may lead to something evil being the result.
Evil is evil, madness is madness,,,,,,,,, a gun is just like our RC's, a bunch of plastic and metal parts assymbled into a device that we can enjoy or destroy.
There are so many stupid and ignorant things people can do to hurt one another, you can beat someone to death with your bare hands (that actually happens more often than from gunshots) or spend the evening at the local watering hole and get into our 4,000 lb. projectile and plow through somebody (also happens more than gunshot related deaths).
Our country is a mess, and just trying to lay the blame on one thing is while ignoring all the other contributing factors is stupid.

 

[Dostradamas]

All men with honour are kings, but not all kings have honour.

What is honour?


Honour is what no man can give you and none can take away. Honour is a gift man gives himself.

Some understand & live by this, most don't even understand what honour means.
Compromise on your beliefs & give up your honor.
The freedom of association works both ways. I feel I can live my life my way & if you don't like it........ you are as free to disassociate yourself as I am to ignore you.
I am an American with the born right to live my life as I see fit, to pursue my liberty & happiness (the way I see it.)
I respect all others right to do this because it is thier freedom as well.
I am a relic.
The foundation of this country was INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS & RESPONSABILITIES, not lets all compromise & sing koom-by-ya.

 

[C*H*U*D]

...you can beat someone to death with your bare hands...or spend the evening at the local watering hole and get into our 4,000 lb. projectile and plow through somebody

...I feel I can live my life my way & if you don't like it........ you are as free to disassociate yourself as I am to ignore you.

So for the sake of argument, if you chose to live your life your way, doing the things Bob says, the rest of us would just have to disassociate ourselves and ignore you?

My point is that some personal freedoms are given up in a democracy...beating someone to death and plowing into people with a car are two examples. Democracy is about compromise, and if there isn't any the Government rules in favor of the majority.

With any bell curve, there are more in the middle than on the extreme ends, and I feel this is the case with this gun debate. I think the majority of Americans are watching this from the middle while two groups are arguing their "all or nothing" point. If there isn't some sort of compromise, watch as a ban finds it's way into law, and I don't want to see that happen.

 

[Dostradamas]

So for the sake of argument, if you chose to live your life your way, doing the things Bob says, the rest of us would just have to disassociate ourselves and ignore you?

Silly.
No you would have the right to defend yourself in bobs 1st example & no amount of laws will stop someone from choosing to do either. If everyone worried about what they were doing & not what they "feel" others are doing the system works. I take care of mine & you take care of yours & what do you know we all get along on down the road. The problem comes up when those that need someone else to take responsability for their life insist others do it.

Freewill is what people are afraid of & I am all for it!
No law will ever stop freewill.

 

[dkf]

I'm sorry but I totally disagree with being able to buy guns online. We all know how many scammers are on Ebay and Craigslist, but yet we are willing to turn a blind eye to online firearms sales?

That right there tells me exactly what you know about online gun sales and the laws behind them. Nothing.

In my state ANY firearm bought online, over the phone or whatever out of state HAS TO BE SHIPPED TO AN FFL. When the FFL recieves the gun you go through the background check. Any person within the state selling a handgun to an another individual hasto go through an FFL. Long guns can be sold to an in state resident without an FFL transfer. The seller is criminally liable if they sell the gun to a prohibited person. That is why a CCW/LTCF along with ID is seen by the seller and a copy retained for their records in most cases or they just go an FFL for a transfer.

Or you can just do what the criminals do and go to major city and buy an "illegal gun" from some loser for less than what you can buy it online or at a gun store for.

It seems to be a trend. The people clammering for more gun laws are also the ones oblivious to the current the laws we have.

 

[C*H*U*D]

Silly.

It was meant to be silly, so I'm glad you picked up on it.

My point is there are certain things in society that are acceptable and unacceptable. Someone may feel it's their right to do as they please, but if it brings harm to others, that right no longer exists. Beating someone to death is an extreme example, but I believe people get where I'm coming from.

I do believe people have the right to protect themselves however they see fit. I live in a somewhat safe place, and I do not carry a gun, but if that changed I wouldn't hesitate to arm myself, and I do feel it's my right to do so. However if I went over the line with that weapon I would expect to pay the consequences.

 

[Dostradamas]

You got it.
"thumbsup"

 

[dezfan]

My point is that some personal freedoms are given up in a democracy...

Thankfully, we are not a Democracy. We are a Republic.

 

[Dostradamas]

Thankfully, we are not a Democracy. We are a Republic.

A republic elects its officials (I feel the elections in America are as real as the WWF.)
I think we are forming into a Fascist state.
"Fascism is a system in which the government leaves nominal ownership of the means of production in the hands of private individuals but exercises control by means of regulatory legislation and reaps most of the profit by means of heavy taxation. In effect, fascism is simply a more subtle form of government ownership than is socialism. ”

 

[rock hard]

I have never said, nor will I ever say, Im in favor of bans on guns. My family and I own enough weapons to start a small war. I AM A GUN OWNER.

I am for regulation and restrictions to obtain. That is different than a ban. And its where most far right people disagree because they immediately translate regulation to mean ban.

You say you dont want your privileges stepped on because of a few bad apples. I really dont get that. Maybe it was my conservative upbringing or my military background, but the saying is well known that "it only takes a few bad apples to ruin the bunch".

Inevitably the instant response from the far right is that its in the constitution and cant be touched. Again we will always disagree here. I dont have all of the answers but as Ive said before taking no action equals no progress.

The only real issue that the right has offered up for sensible discussion is mental health, and thats a good topic that needs adressing. But even that will step on some toes and the far right acts as if they want no toes stepped on. Its a line that must be walked.

Your last statement is probably the most realistic tactic that the far left would try to use, and I do not agree with that method.

The 1st and 2nd are protected from bad apples ruining the bunch"thumbsup"
How about if your 1st amendment got cramped on ( it allready is )
imagine how fast we would have lost our ability to spoeak freely and protect ourselfs if teh gov. was not harnessed by the constitution.

UNAILIENABLE RIGHTS.....
even youth should have these rights...
audie murphy by todays laws, would not have the legal right to own the guns he became a hero with.
he wouldnt even be allowed to use them, unless accompanied by an adult in some states

And you do support a gun ban....just you only want to ban them from people
YOU or GOV dont think should have them.

Seems to me a lot of the mass murderers get there tools from irresponsible gun owners that "may" have not had them if there were requirements to get them in the first place.

WE KNOW there are a lot of responsible people out there, but as the saying goes, its only takes a few to ruin the bunch.


I dont see how a basic/general requirement for you to do something is in any way violating your right to do it. And if you disagree you probably shouldnt be trying to do anything that has a requirement.

If you support prohibiting guns from certain individuals, for not meeting certain requirments....that is a ban,

Its prohibiting them from owning a gun=ban

You, nor the goverment have any right telling anyone they cant own a firearm, as its thier PROTECTED right to do so.
thier is no protected right to travel by any means you wish. roads are not a protected way of travel...you want to drive, yes thier is
tests, requirments....that is a poor example you used when comparing to requirments to own weapons.

A better example would be this.
IF you want the right to speak freely, you have to meet certain requirments..you must take clesses to insure you wont speak out
against any form of goverment, nation, religion group, sexual group, terrorist group ect. to make sure you are responsible enough not
to promote hate, violence and disruption.
then, once you have completed these classes, you can have that right of free speech thats protected in the constitution.
but if you ever misuse this right, and speak out in vilence, hate oor disruption, we will remove your protected right.
speach after all, has incited more violence than anything..ever.

would tolerate your rights of speach trampled om like that? probably not
but you support gun rights being trampled on in a simulare manner....dangerous iis what that is.

Bacouse you state that NOT ALLOWING certain people from possessing guns, people who may be honest, but who have not meet, or do not meet certain criteria. tell me alot about you.

and that you dont see how thats a violation of thier rights....tells me even more about you.

you, and people like you are the biggest threat our freedoms face.
It always have been, and it always will be...

Its noot distant nations who remove our freedoms, its the people who think like you.
The people who think likek you who are elected into office, and the people who support those ideas.
these are the people who put all our freedoms at risk, one opinion/vote at a time, since our founding.



tv was heavily introduced into home by the end of ww2.....so a middle aged man in the mid 60's would have been
one of the 1st generation to be "rasied" with this type of social media......from birth and onward.
the miid 60's was the 1st spree shooting I can recall....the texas tower.
tv is a huge problem, as is the enternet, these are issues no one wants to tackle, as we all have an addiction to
technology, and everything that has a screen.

tv's are in nearly every room in america now, hell good luck even eating a burger without a screen on in the room now days.
many kids fall asleep each night watching who knows what....its a parenting problem also...parents dont want to use hard punishments.
one rason is social media makes it look bad, like your a bad parnet if you use corporal punishment.
another big reason is parents want a friendly relationship with thier kids, instead of being thier coach and leader.
and its only going to get worse, and what people will do to gain thier small peice of fame will get worse.
people lacking emotional support will get worse, as families siit down to eat, and instead opf talking, are looking at thier pocket screens.
parental skills will deteriorate more, parental envolvement too, and our legal means of deturent will also erode more and more
as social media continues to speak ill of parents who actually punish bad behavior the old fashioned way....
The social problems of this country, as we see today IMO spawned with the dawn of tv.

 

[Dostradamas]

tv's are in nearly every room in america now, hell good luck even eating a burger without a screen on in the room now days.
and its only going to get worse, and what people will do to gain thier small peice of fame will get worse.
people lacking emotional support will get worse, as families siit down to eat, and instead opf talking, are looking at thier pocket screens.
The social problems of this country, as we see today IMO spawned with the dawn of tv.

I agree with the spawn or birth of the problem was Television, tho I think the internet is when the problem began its meteoric rise is speed.

Goin on 5 yrs with no Television (dvds I pic only) & no internet(or smart phone) in the house.

I actually feel pain when at a friends house watching news, the propaganda is so forceful.

 

[rock hard]

I agree with the spawn or birth of the problem was Television, tho I think the internet is when the problem began its meteoric rise is speed.

Goin on 5 yrs with no Television (dvds I pic only) & no internet(or smart phone) in the house.

I actually feel pain when at a friends house watching news, the propaganda is so forceful.

enternet is like fire IMO
fire has many uses....can keep you alive on a cold night. can be used to safely prepare foods...can be used as defense from enemies, light your way, ect.

But fire can be most devestating if not treated with the highest respect and care taken during its use.

would you let your 12yrs old play with fire unsupervised?
but many kids that age have pc access in thier rooms, on thier person with thier phones, ect.
look at social media sites like youtub and see the imaturity of todays youth as a whole.
thier need and willingness to outragious things for attention..
the sexual content and other filth our kids have to witness is based on our own
failues as adults.
what do you think adults would have done to the channel that showed family guy back in the 50's?
we tolerate it, cuz we are more tolelrant.....this is why many things are considered ok today....tolerance.
and even moore will be tolerated the next generation and more the nenxt.
now hetero and homosexual content is thrown in our kids faces from everydirection as a result of our failures as adults
our falures al lleaders, allowing ourselfs to tolerate such content on basic tv that kids can thumb through when they get home.
as a result of all the filth american tolerat for thier own adult wants and need, Parents NEED to be more involved in thier kids action more than ever today, but due to selfgratafication and selfeshness parents spend less time being envolved in their kids lives than ever before. Instead they allow thier kids to watch the filth with them, take the filth into thier room to bed, and instead of talking and teaching, they let the schools and social media do the teaching, so they can be thier kids friend instead of thier kids steward.

younger people, and thier actions will get worse as a result of
allowing them access to things they are not mature enough for, with parents
not monitooring thier actions saying things like ( they are gonna see it eventually anyway)

in the end, no gun, or tv, or car does makes any mistakes, its only people.
the most common error is human error..
people make mistakes, those mistakes effect those around us.

its unjust to remove a persons rights, for the mistakes of others.

 

[RANOVRU]

The 1st and 2nd are protected from bad apples ruining the bunch"thumbsup"
How about if your 1st amendment got cramped on ( it allready is )
imagine how fast we would have lost our ability to spoeak freely and protect ourselfs if teh gov. was not harnessed by the constitution.

UNAILIENABLE RIGHTS.....
even youth should have these rights...
audie murphy by todays laws, would not have the legal right to own the guns he became a hero with.
he wouldnt even be allowed to use them, unless accompanied by an adult in some states

And you do support a gun ban....just you only want to ban them from people
YOU or GOV dont think should have them.




If you support prohibiting guns from certain individuals, for not meeting certain requirments....that is a ban,

Its prohibiting them from owning a gun=ban

You, nor the goverment have any right telling anyone they cant own a firearm, as its thier PROTECTED right to do so.
thier is no protected right to travel by any means you wish. roads are not a protected way of travel...you want to drive, yes thier is
tests, requirments....that is a poor example you used when comparing to requirments to own weapons.

A better example would be this.
IF you want the right to speak freely, you have to meet certain requirments..you must take clesses to insure you wont speak out
against any form of goverment, nation, religion group, sexual group, terrorist group ect. to make sure you are responsible enough not
to promote hate, violence and disruption.
then, once you have completed these classes, you can have that right of free speech thats protected in the constitution.
but if you ever misuse this right, and speak out in vilence, hate oor disruption, we will remove your protected right.
speach after all, has incited more violence than anything..ever.

would tolerate your rights of speach trampled om like that? probably not
but you support gun rights being trampled on in a simulare manner....dangerous iis what that is.

Bacouse you state that NOT ALLOWING certain people from possessing guns, people who may be honest, but who have not meet, or do not meet certain criteria. tell me alot about you.

and that you dont see how thats a violation of thier rights....tells me even more about you.

you, and people like you are the biggest threat our freedoms face.
It always have been, and it always will be...

Its noot distant nations who remove our freedoms, its the people who think like you.
The people who think likek you who are elected into office, and the people who support those ideas.
these are the people who put all our freedoms at risk, one opinion/vote at a time, since our founding.



tv was heavily introduced into home by the end of ww2.....so a middle aged man in the mid 60's would have been
one of the 1st generation to be "rasied" with this type of social media......from birth and onward.
the miid 60's was the 1st spree shooting I can recall....the texas tower.
tv is a huge problem, as is the enternet, these are issues no one wants to tackle, as we all have an addiction to
technology, and everything that has a screen.

tv's are in nearly every room in america now, hell good luck even eating a burger without a screen on in the room now days.
many kids fall asleep each night watching who knows what....its a parenting problem also...parents dont want to use hard punishments.
one rason is social media makes it look bad, like your a bad parnet if you use corporal punishment.
another big reason is parents want a friendly relationship with thier kids, instead of being thier coach and leader.
and its only going to get worse, and what people will do to gain thier small peice of fame will get worse.
people lacking emotional support will get worse, as families siit down to eat, and instead opf talking, are looking at thier pocket screens.
parental skills will deteriorate more, parental envolvement too, and our legal means of deturent will also erode more and more
as social media continues to speak ill of parents who actually punish bad behavior the old fashioned way....
The social problems of this country, as we see today IMO spawned with the dawn of tv.

I think you might be that far right I was refering to. Too far gone to even have a reasonable discussion with.

Its ok, Im perfectly fine agreeing to disagree.

 

[NoobCrawler]

Ok, let's say they make stricter laws and regulations to buy a gun. What is all that going to mean to the criminals who steal and supply other criminals with guns? Yes, thats right, absolutely nothing. Well done.:roll:

 

[EeePee]

Wtf is up with the quoting the books people write!?

Knock it off!

Please. :mrgreen:

 

[johnnyh66]

Ok, let's say they make stricter laws and regulations to buy a gun. What is all that going to mean to the criminals who steal and supply other criminals with guns? Yes, thats right, absolutely nothing. Well done.:roll:

but the school shootings were done by kids, not criminals.

btw, I've been wanting to pick up an AR15 ever since I fired my buddies in New Mexico... man that was fun.