2016-2017 rules and new ideas discussion

[Robbob]

Its assuming no pros could run on the local level. As Chevota said above, if you cant run on the local level, why keep the car just for national level events.

If you let the pros run on the local level, thats a better idea for sure.

ahhh gotcha ....... local clubs should always be able to do what is in the best interest of their club. they want to let the pros run then so be it.


but we need the governing organization to bring the rules for a class though. and not even be a new class ...... just a lateral move that expands a current class to another option. rules that make sense for the spirit and benefit of the sport though.

 

[chevotafun]

I'm starting to wonder if Mr.Holmes even reads this thread.
I have asked twice now and sent a email to him on how to go about holding a qualifier.

We have the Warcrc guys the Calgary crew plus our club, which should give us about 21 guys maybe more.

Starting to get alittle :evil::evil:

 

[Krawler Kev]

I'm starting to wonder if Mr.Holmes even reads this thread.
I have asked twice now and sent a email to him on how to go about holding a qualifier.

We have the Warcrc guys the Calgary crew plus our club, which should give us about 21 guys maybe more.

Starting to get alittle :evil::evil:

A few of headed out to BC in hopes of a qualifier last year but JRH squashed it. We still went and had a great comp, even though Mammoth won:roll:.

JRH - Where are you at? Is RCORVA working? It seems like less and less comps are posted there...

 

[tapped-out]

IMO we don't tell pro driver's they can't run in the 2.2s class, just have the judge mark driver's as 2.2s novice or 2.2s pro driver depending on rig specs."thumbsup"
Really simple novice compete against novice drivers, pro against pro.

(As already mentioned)

 

[Solitaire]

I don't think you can rank a driver by his/her rig specs. Drivers have to be ranked by comp placings and we already have a procedure for that...RCORVA.

Unfortunately, not all drivers have bothered to sign up or even have their events published. IMO, every event should be listed on RCORVA and every driver that attends a comp should be registered. Ranking becomes very easy if that method was followed.

We have the tool, let's use it.

Caveat: JRH needs to work a bit more on the site for the tool to function seamlessly.

 

[tapped-out]

I don't think you can rank a driver by his/her rig specs.

Agreed, I almost removed the part about rig specs. My point is if a person doesn't feel comfortable competing aginst a "PRO" because they are a newbie or rig is closer to a "stock class" they can tell the judge I'm a novice driver...
Obviously a guy like myself wouldn't drive in novice class because my rig IMO is modified and I'm comfortable driving against other "PRO" drivers.

Remember we all drive our rigs for fun and being told I can't drive in 2.2s class kills the fun..
Just my 2cents.

 

[Robbob]

Again I ask is there a committee? Seems like it could help in alleviate some work and put more into advertising events, having more input into rules and organizing, handle multiple input from different regions better.


Ill throw this out there as I have mentioned in other threads towards the 2.2S class. Even going back to the creation of the class. The spirit back then (seemed it) was it could attract guys who didnt want to run against moa's or switch. Drivers could pull those trucks or even axles out of the closet and come comp again with out feeling the pressure of seasoned drivers. The rules were written pretty straight forward as I remember that defined what made a shafty truck. Cant think there was a way even back then for the moa axles to sneak in from gray definitions.

Even veterans could build trucks using old axles and compete. Talk was it could give new people a chance at winning and getting better. I said it then and its been mentioned again by a valued member .... Pro drivers should be excluded from such a class. Back then Austin was on top and I mentioned you put someone like him in that class and hes gonna walk it like a pro course. How is a new driver suppose to look at the class and think he stands a chance. Back in the closet it gos.

Innovation took its way like it always does and we have some incredible trucks, trucks that could give the best moa a run for its money. Thats good - its gonna happen and we dont want to hamper it. But on the flip it also turned the class into a money pit for new guys. So now they have that intimidation of even trying the class out.

We can help that now and turn things with out even creating a new class. It could be just an extension of an existing but the rules need to be well written and left alone or the class wont stand a chance.

Heres my gut idea .....

Chassis materials - they need to be limited. You can use all your aftermarket chassis' but keep the rules to stock or G10 only. You just cut a chassis expense in half for a new person. AND they can still get the popular proven ones just at half the cost. No CF - No 3D printed stuff ... its either stock with their kits or G10 replacements. Best part is if they want to jump sideways and run with the seasoned guys they can still run that chassis or upgrade then to CF for bling. Material is not gonna make a bad driver good - we all know this.


Limit voltage - 3S max for the class. Theres no reason to run 4S in a beginners class and with the current 3S's out there they will have plenty of wheel speeds.

Tires - Keep the pins out, any brand just no pins. Theres plenty of lug tires out that have proven they work great. Take the thought of spending 90$ on tires and having to cut and shut them out. Easier to swallow 50$ in rovers or sedonas and know they work.

Bring the old body rules back. IMO the body changes were fine for 2.2M class but should have been left alone for the 2.2S class. Comp crawling is not about looking scale and honestly seeing a rig with the hood cut off at the windshield just doesnt look appealing. Chassis measurements have a minimum and the body should be left seperate.

Big help could be a minimum weight ..... put it at 5#'s. We use to drive 6+ rigs back in the day and its been shown lighter then air doesnt always win. Who cares where they stack the weight/bias .... put a fish hook up and every truck has to weight no less then 5#'s. Take the mentality out that they need all this light weight stuff.

None of this puts any restriction on innovation or guys thinking outside the box. All doors are still open to move up to the class with the more seasoned drivers either using existing equipment or improving it.

How about an approval rule - lets say someone comes out with a new axle thats the best ever made. How about a rule that ok's all current axles and says if a new one comes out after a season starts then it cant be used until the following season? Keep drivers from thinking they need to rush out and spend money just to have the latest and greatest thing. Again keep their cost down.

I race SK and they have approved list of things you can use, you even have to submit your chassis for approval prior to a season date. Anything after that is locked out until the following year. I have to wait a year to submit mine but it gives me time to R&D it and be sure its good before producing them. We could lock this class into anything produced prior to class creation, all product made is already granted its approval. Then set some dates and things like chassis' ... axles .... transmissions would have to be submitted.

Its not to restrict anyone ...... it would only be for the novice/sportsman level of the 2.2S class. Keep drivers hands on their tools to tune and radios to drive instead of in their wallets thinking gizmoA is gonna make them win.

And yes restrict drivers from the class ...... you win any worlds or qualifier style comp then its a no go for you. You win one in this class then your name is added for the following year. Like I said before though clubs can do what they want. the rules should only be used to structure classes and not to tell clubs how to operate. Come Qualifiers and Worlds though it would fall into place.

My heart is always in getting new blood and Im never one for creating a new class so everyone has a chance at winning. I started the shafty class locally years ago for our club and we saw a bunch of new people. We even gained pro drivers from it. Mission accomplished and I truly believe we need to look at using the 2.2S class as that. With some tweaking and real rules it can be done.

With this extension of the class plus some real promoting and orginazation of comp crawling things could really turn back around to where they were in 2011/2012 and have even better results.

Sorry for the soap box ......

 

[Solitaire]

...Remember we all drive our rigs for fun and being told I can't drive in 2.2s class kills the fun..
Just my 2cents.

Totally agree. I certainly don't want to be told I can't compete no matter what class it is. If you build it or buy it, you should be able to run it.

Then the ranking comes into play. I see that as completely doable as long as everyone gets onboard.

 

[Solitaire]

Again I ask is there a committee? Seems like it could help in alleviate some work and put more into advertising events, having more input into rules and organizing, handle multiple input from different regions better.

JRH explictly said last year he was handling it all on his own. Personally, I think that needs to be revisited. There are a good number of drivers globally that have a vested interest in crawling and they should have a say in what goes on.

Back in the day when there were regional representatives I think there was a lot more cohesiveness. I'm not a fan of gathering a handful of drivers together during a World's event and hashing out rules for the next season. Sometimes these things need some discussion and I'm sure most would like to take back ideas and present them to their respective clubs before finalizing.

But, that's just one man's opinion.

 

[tapped-out]

I'm sure it's been said new drivers are created by local clubs promoting a Run What You Brung class.
Drivers could drive any type of rig from ax10, wraith, scx10, rs10 or other Crawler related rigs in this RWYB class.
IMO new driver's don't want rules to see if they like the comp style of crawling so changing rules/2.2s class we have now won't bring new drivers just might chase off the ones we have left...

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

I'm still watching. The committee is being revisited and I would like to form one before spring. Not for rules so much, but for general event organizing and cohesive seasons. In all honesty the rules aren't really the most important parts, it's just reliably hosting events that are fun and organized.

 

[tapped-out]

Just thinking out loud...
Scale comps, have 3 different classes that seems to have as many rules/specs as usrcca comp rules/specs. Building a capable scale rig can cost as much as a 2.2 comp rig.. (I haven't done the math) however scale comps are the best thing since butter (from what I see & hear) and continue to grow.
Because of low numbers @ usrcca comps guys think our system is broken I don't belive our low numbers are because our System is broken.


Like others have said lack of promotion maybe? (IDK)
Grow your local clubs however possible RWYB class, stock class or ?
Changing what we have in place now @ USRCCA level will not grow our hobby IMO.

http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/2-2-scale-rigs/552883-want-build-c3-sorcca-rules.html

 

[Curcal]

Stubs179 had the best idea for rookies vs veterans. Its terribly easy and simple too.

Let them all run together but when the scores come out, separate them into as many groups as needed so everybody wins.

Say you had 21 drivers, you could put them into as many classes as you want. Say you want everybody to podium, put up 7 different classes.

It sounds silly but I did this at some of the 801 events and it went very, very well. I didnt do the rookie vs. veterans thing but instead I did different since we had a run what you brung class so I was able to do 1.9's, 2.2's, Wraiths, sportsman, driveshaft, MOA, 6x6 etc,. etc,. I pretty much made it so everybody won one of the classes.

Participation trophies/1st on the spreadsheet, its what we want these days!

This is the spirit of My RWYB class. Cars all run the same course and the separation of class is done horizontally.

Again I ask is there a committee? Seems like it could help in alleviate some work and put more into advertising events, having more input into rules and organizing, handle multiple input from different regions better.


Ill throw this out there as I have mentioned in other threads towards the 2.2S class. Even going back to the creation of the class. The spirit back then (seemed it) was it could attract guys who didnt want to run against moa's or switch. Drivers could pull those trucks or even axles out of the closet and come comp again with out feeling the pressure of seasoned drivers. The rules were written pretty straight forward as I remember that defined what made a shafty truck. Cant think there was a way even back then for the moa axles to sneak in from gray definitions.

Even veterans could build trucks using old axles and compete. Talk was it could give new people a chance at winning and getting better. I said it then and its been mentioned again by a valued member .... Pro drivers should be excluded from such a class. Back then Austin was on top and I mentioned you put someone like him in that class and hes gonna walk it like a pro course. How is a new driver suppose to look at the class and think he stands a chance. Back in the closet it gos.

Innovation took its way like it always does and we have some incredible trucks, trucks that could give the best moa a run for its money. Thats good - its gonna happen and we dont want to hamper it. But on the flip it also turned the class into a money pit for new guys. So now they have that intimidation of even trying the class out.

We can help that now and turn things with out even creating a new class. It could be just an extension of an existing but the rules need to be well written and left alone or the class wont stand a chance.

Heres my gut idea .....

Chassis materials - they need to be limited. You can use all your aftermarket chassis' but keep the rules to stock or G10 only. You just cut a chassis expense in half for a new person. AND they can still get the popular proven ones just at half the cost. No CF - No 3D printed stuff ... its either stock with their kits or G10 replacements. Best part is if they want to jump sideways and run with the seasoned guys they can still run that chassis or upgrade then to CF for bling. Material is not gonna make a bad driver good - we all know this.


Limit voltage - 3S max for the class. Theres no reason to run 4S in a beginners class and with the current 3S's out there they will have plenty of wheel speeds.

Tires - Keep the pins out, any brand just no pins. Theres plenty of lug tires out that have proven they work great. Take the thought of spending 90$ on tires and having to cut and shut them out. Easier to swallow 50$ in rovers or sedonas and know they work.

Bring the old body rules back. IMO the body changes were fine for 2.2M class but should have been left alone for the 2.2S class. Comp crawling is not about looking scale and honestly seeing a rig with the hood cut off at the windshield just doesnt look appealing. Chassis measurements have a minimum and the body should be left seperate.

Big help could be a minimum weight ..... put it at 5#'s. We use to drive 6+ rigs back in the day and its been shown lighter then air doesnt always win. Who cares where they stack the weight/bias .... put a fish hook up and every truck has to weight no less then 5#'s. Take the mentality out that they need all this light weight stuff.

None of this puts any restriction on innovation or guys thinking outside the box. All doors are still open to move up to the class with the more seasoned drivers either using existing equipment or improving it.

How about an approval rule - lets say someone comes out with a new axle thats the best ever made. How about a rule that ok's all current axles and says if a new one comes out after a season starts then it cant be used until the following season? Keep drivers from thinking they need to rush out and spend money just to have the latest and greatest thing. Again keep their cost down.

I race SK and they have approved list of things you can use, you even have to submit your chassis for approval prior to a season date. Anything after that is locked out until the following year. I have to wait a year to submit mine but it gives me time to R&D it and be sure its good before producing them. We could lock this class into anything produced prior to class creation, all product made is already granted its approval. Then set some dates and things like chassis' ... axles .... transmissions would have to be submitted.

Its not to restrict anyone ...... it would only be for the novice/sportsman level of the 2.2S class. Keep drivers hands on their tools to tune and radios to drive instead of in their wallets thinking gizmoA is gonna make them win.

And yes restrict drivers from the class ...... you win any worlds or qualifier style comp then its a no go for you. You win one in this class then your name is added for the following year. Like I said before though clubs can do what they want. the rules should only be used to structure classes and not to tell clubs how to operate. Come Qualifiers and Worlds though it would fall into place.

My heart is always in getting new blood and Im never one for creating a new class so everyone has a chance at winning. I started the shafty class locally years ago for our club and we saw a bunch of new people. We even gained pro drivers from it. Mission accomplished and I truly believe we need to look at using the 2.2S class as that. With some tweaking and real rules it can be done.

With this extension of the class plus some real promoting and orginazation of comp crawling things could really turn back around to where they were in 2011/2012 and have even better results.

Sorry for the soap box ......

I think there's some really good ideas in here. I think this thread is in one way or another a committee. We all have an interest in making what we have better, as for an official committee that's JRH's call. I did like how at Worlds a short discussion and vote was held to change certain rules. This provides everyone a chance to make sure their voice is heard and the people it affects most can say yea or nay. Gives us even more of a reason to attend worlds events than just a shot at the title.

JRH explictly said last year he was handling it all on his own. Personally, I think that needs to be revisited. There are a good number of drivers globally that have a vested interest in crawling and they should have a say in what goes on.

Back in the day when there were regional representatives I think there was a lot more cohesiveness. I'm not a fan of gathering a handful of drivers together during a World's event and hashing out rules for the next season. Sometimes these things need some discussion and I'm sure most would like to take back ideas and present them to their respective clubs before finalizing.

But, that's just one man's opinion.

I think we have a good representation of regions here in this thread alone. and then we voted at worlds on new rule changes. I think a place like this should be a place where discussion and proposals could be made that will be taken to worlds and be voted on. What's interesting is many of us don't want the rules to change (all that much), but we want to figure out how to bring in new blood.

I'm still watching. The committee is being revisited and I would like to form one before spring. Not for rules so much, but for general event organizing and cohesive seasons. In all honesty the rules aren't really the most important parts, it's just reliably hosting events that are fun and organized.

Thanks John! I agree events are the key. I'm not an organizer on RCORVA, but I speak with one almost every week. He said last year that there was sometimes a week or two delay before events were approved then posted. Not sure if that could be sped up or if the approval process is even necessary. Just thoughts. Also a data base of known club and a way to sort drivers by region could help those who are new, moving, or traveling meet up with people who have the same interests. It would be cool to take some time while I'm on a vacation to have a local show me some killer lines.

Just thinking out loud...
Scale comps, have 3 different classes that seems to have as many rules/specs as usrcca comp rules/specs. Building a capable scale rig can cost as much as a 2.2 comp rig.. (I haven't done the math) however scale comps are the best thing since butter (from what I see & hear) and continue to grow.
Because of low numbers @ usrcca comps guys think our system is broken I don't belive our low numbers are because our System is broken.


Like others have said lack of promotion maybe? (IDK)
Grow your local clubs however possible RWYB class, stock class or ?
Changing what we have in place now @ USRCCA level will not grow our hobby IMO.

I don't think our system is broken either. I think it works quite well.

 

[chevotafun]

I'm still watching. The committee is being revisited and I would like to form one before spring. Not for rules so much, but for general event organizing and cohesive seasons. In all honesty the rules aren't really the most important parts, it's just reliably hosting events that are fun and organized.

If your watching WHY no answer to my question about qualifier's?

We tried to hold one last year, but you said we waited to late to do so, So this year were trying to get a early start on it. But were not getting any info back from you on this.

One other question-
Do you know where worlds is going to be this year so people can start there planning?

IMO people need as much time as possible to be able to attend, As most people have a job, wife and kids. Not that easy to just pick up and go.
The more info and time people have to get things sorted out, the more people that will attend.

Tapped-out
your so right, to build a nice scale rig will cost you the same as a MOA rig, I have built both and there is just as much to spend in scale as there is for a comp crawler.

 

[Solitaire]

Just thinking out loud...
Scale comps, have 3 different classes that seems to have as many rules/specs as usrcca comp rules/specs. Building a capable scale rig can cost as much as a 2.2 comp rig.. (I haven't done the math) however scale comps are the best thing since butter (from what I see & hear) and continue to grow.
Because of low numbers @ usrcca comps guys think our system is broken I don't belive our low numbers are because our System is broken...


http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/2-2-scale-rigs/552883-want-build-c3-sorcca-rules.html

Way more rules in Scale, but the biggest difference for the growth is the fact anyone can buy a Scale rig right off the shelf. Can't do that with MOA's...well other than a couple of off-shore wannabees. You might get the value up close to a comp rig if you went absolutely crazy, but I think the majority of capable Scale rigs run about 2/3 the value of a well equipped comp truck.

I don't think our system is broken, either. A touch fragmented, maybe.

 

[VMGontheRocks]

Way more rules in Scale, but the biggest difference for the growth is the fact anyone can buy a Scale rig right off the shelf. Can't do that with MOA's...well other than a couple of off-shore wannabees. You might get the value up close to a comp rig if you went absolutely crazy, but I think the majority of capable Scale rigs run about 2/3 the value of a well equipped comp truck.

I don't think our system is broken, either. A touch fragmented, maybe.

ding ding ding

Here's my input as a hard core scale guy who's started to dabble in the comp side.

As for cost my top of the line scaler ran me $1200+ in parts. I've priced out a MOA crawler and from my count it would only cost me around $900 to build.

We constantly have new guys coming out to scale comps with new or fairly new box stock trucks. Guys seem to really enjoy coming out and running. Biggest complaints are that they don't get to drive their truck enough and that the comps are too far away. As a club we also try and host a few team trail runs to allow people to drive their trucks more. As for comps being too far away, there isn't much you can do about that. Another thing I've noticed is that with Facebook you have a lot of groups and a few guys in that group will get together and just go out and drive on a whim. A lot of people this day and age don't plan out what they're doing until the day of.

I think comp crawling is a ton of fun. I think the biggest thing going against it are lack of RTR or even kit versions of trucks.

 

[chevotafun]

I think your $900 is a bit light, But I guess it depends what kinda of parts your putting on.
I have around $2000 into mine and over $1200 into my sportsman. But yes you could get a used MOA for $600 and up.

Solitaire is right,
you can walk into just about any LHS and buy a scale truck right off the self and go comp with it, you can not do that with a MOA anymore.
Look when axial brought out the XR10 the comp crawler side took off.

We need that again to breath some new life into the crawler side of thing.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm still no answer from Mr Holmes about a qualifier. :roll::roll:

 

[Tom G]

Promoting what we are doing now is the only way to bring attention to comp crawling, period. The way it is now we get no magazine coverage, really no mention in any kind of media that I've seen (not counting FaceBook as thats us individuals showing our stuff). How does the normal hobbiest know we exist? Answer is they don't. You want to grow, promotion is the key to bring the lime light back to us and just maybe we'll get manufacturers back in the game.

I agree 100% with your comments Chris,

Not knocking anything or anyone take a look at our clubs website. Most of the info is 1-2 yrs old. I posted a flyer to our website at the local hobby shop at owner's request.

But info is so outdated IE: for the local comp's and scale event's calendars that people could not find info on how or ware to attend our local events.

Looking forward to this years Comp's "thumbsup"

 

[VMGontheRocks]

I think your $900 is a bit light, But I guess it depends what kinda of parts your putting on.
I have around $2000 into mine and over $1200 into my sportsman. But yes you could get a used MOA for $600 and up.

I may or may not have forgot to include chassis :lmao:

I've been looking at some of the used MOAs but none of them really had the electronics that I wanted so I've passed on all of them.

 

[Dravpnir]

If you just want cheap, that can be done, kinda.

G10 glue on wheels $54
Rover tires $45
Plastic links $30?
Delrin chassis $75
Modded MT axles $275 (with some tricks up my sleeve, but decent axles that can be upgraded)
Electronics $300ish?

About $780 total and other than the links, you would have a start but probably want to upgrade the gears to Berg gears? I should have some close to RTR axles in the near future that could need ZERO upgrading starting at $425. That could bring it all to $930 but not sure if people would be satisfied with things like plastic links and delrin chassis?

Who would be happy with something like this? I would love to find a good common ground that would entice new people to get in. I have honestly been working on it (see the trick up my sleeve comment above) and I will have some cool parts coming in within the next little bit to drive prices way down and quality way up.

Hard to believe but.... I really wouldnt need it to be about "me" either. If other chassis manufacturers wanted to make a delrin chassis for example, I would be happy to offer those too. I could even cut them to order so there is no initial cost or inventory? Maybe put some thought into it and do more with other manufacturers? Brood and Holmes might be able to offer their low cost motors and ESC?

Edit:

CI 6 bolt wheels could be a great example. About $25 for 4 so that could knock another $30 off the total price.

If a "RTR" rather cheap moa package would be put together I can sponsor such packages with SuDu Pro's for $75 instead of using a delrin chassis "thumbsup"

Cheaper and "weaker" motors also put less strain on the gears so perhaps the MT gears will be fine then.