brushed vs. brushless video battle to settle the debate

[Duuuuuuuude]

my whole point from the begining was trying to dispell this "brushless motors cog and are useless" myth. they are not the be all and end all powerplant, a 55t brushed motor makes more torque than you will ever need-yes, but a properly geared b/l will make the same or more power and give you speed too.

There is no myth, there is just proper motors for proper applications. Brushless motors will cog and stall under conditions that a brushed motor will not. That has always been true, and at this point in time it still is. It is not a matter of opinion or bias, it is real world experience.

this started when i replied with a suggestion to a post about motor opinions and the next post suggested i was an idiot who doesnt know what cogging and stalling were. then proceded to tell me how a brushed 27t makes more torque than a brushless and then if you were dumb enough to run brushless you need sensored or nothing. so i post we make a standard basic test course and we all run our trucks so people picking a motor can make an informed decision after watching a 2 minute video on a similar motor to what they were thinking about.

You weren't comparing apples to apples. If you want to compare two different motors objectively they need to be of similar size and speed.

the only reply i got in this whole mess willing to take part is chud, ever other one tells the same thing- brushed is better cause i said so, so its not worth doing.

Brushed is better in some situations. The situation you've given us is log pile climbing where finesse and accuracy are not of great importance. The situation we've given you is a comp scenario, where finesse and accuracy are of terribly great importance.

Methinks you are trying to trump our deep, long tested knowledge and experience with your extremely modest knowledge and experience.

 

[Crawl Space]

Is that the tacon bigfoot 10? Brushless outrunners for sure have a ton of low end torque. Those lower turn motors you mentioned aren't known for being torque monsters - lower turns = less efficiency and lower torque. No surprise they burned up.

I think the quality of the brushed motor makes a huge difference, perhaps more than the difference in quality of brushless motors. It would be interesting to see a comparison with the following categories:

1. Unit price
2. Required esc price
3. Weight
4. Operating voltage range
5. # of turns
6. Efficiency
7. Peak/avg current draw
8. Throttle resolution
9. Startup resolution
10. Optimal gearing operating temp range
11. Peak torque output/ stall-out torque
12. Drag brake strength
13. Maintenance cost (time and $$)
14. Projected longevity
15. Resistance to the elements

I'm probably forgetting some important qualities to measure, but something along these lines would provide a solid data pool for people to make their own decision "thumbsup"

To move this thread forward (if possible) - does anyone have other criteria they would like to see added to the above list?

I would gladly volunteer to document what I can when I get my HH revolver S back.

 

[stevem50]

This has become a waste of time if it is going to be a bunch of reasons why not to.

 

[stevem50]

To move this thread forward (if possible) - does anyone have other criteria they would like to see added to the above list?

I would gladly volunteer to document what I can when I get my HH revolver S back.

That is a bit more in depth than I had in mind, but if you explain how to measure each criteria then im game. I still just want to watch other setups in action to compare to mine...


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[6sharky9]

Im all for the comparison test and will donate my time on the brushed side with 2s power for a comparison..Most of us already know the outcome though and the benefits of both sides. This is what some of us are trying to explain with all this...the test has already been done by pros and back yard bashers alike and in the real world under comp rules and conditions...Its crystal clear already what works best for what scenario/situation ..When brushless motors/ESCs beat out the brushed motor in all areas then we have a clear winner for ruling all the land.

 

[jado6006]

Hey stevem, this thread is coming accross as a guy whose down with bl trying to be objective about proving his point. But i've read in this thread, from guys who know the same things i know. That a quality brushed esc/motor combo is topnotch when going slow. And a good (or even cheapo, like your 70$ setup) bl setup is the ticket when going fast. We good now stevem? Doubt it, i'm betting you'll double post multiple reasons why this post was misguided, & that the debate your pushing, must rage on.

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

Here is the very simple test I propose...

Take thre motors, one brushed, one brushless, one sensored brushless. They all must the same size (540 or3650), and roughly the same kV (not wind). They all must be tested in the same vehicle with the same gearing and the same voltage.

There will be three tests.

Stall test. The vehicles wheels will be locked down so that they cannot spin. Throttle will be applied very slowly until it has been determined whether or not the motor is applying torque or sitting there chattering.

Loaded test. The vehicle must push/pull/carry a heavy load from a dead stop. Throttle will be applied very slowly.

Speed test. The vehicle will accelerate from a dead stop via immediate wot until it reaches its top speed.


If, during the stall and load tests, that it is found that lower gearing takes the cogging/chatter away, they will be allowed to test with that gearing. However, they must maintain that gearing during all subsequent tests.

 

[Crawl Space]

That is a bit more in depth than I had in mind, but if you explain how to measure each criteria then im game. I still just want to watch other setups in action to compare to mine...


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Here is a video of the revolver prototypes John Holmes developed. The production model 540 size revolver s, however, runs a 14 mag setup and is rated at 2000kv.

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/XSdmdyZ5ky4?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[stevem50]

We good now stevem? Doubt it, i'm betting you'll double post multiple reasons why this post was misguided, & that the debate your pushing, must rage on.[/QUOTE]

this wasnt meant to be a debate, its supposed to be a jump off point for a catalog of video samples of what to expect from a product before you buy it... it snowballed into a bunch of people giving reasons not to bother. if it doesnt interest you, move on. if it does then post a vid and description of your drivetrain, so that the guy thinking of buying the same one can see what to expect out of it before he plunks his dough down.

simple enough?

 

[sgtbham]

This has become a waste of time if it is going to be a bunch of reasons why not to.

It was a waste of time from the first post, there is no wrong answer here just as there is no right one. The end result you claim to have been going for might have been achieved if you had not come across as such a contrarian.

 

[stevem50]

yup- i dont follow the heard blindly...but i would at least read the previous post before injecting my completely off base opinion

for the 10th time, not a absolute right or wrong answer... a catalog of info to base a decision on.

 

[sgtbham]

yup- i dont follow the heard blindly...but i would at least read the previous post before injecting my completely off base opinion

for the 10th time, not a absolute right or wrong answer... a catalog of info to base a decision on.

I also choose not to follow the heard....or the herd blindly. My point was that people offered you their opinions and you argued with them, and thats what I based my opinion off of. I like my brushed motors just fine they do what I want them to do, thats the end of the debate for me. I will stay away from this thread now.... until it gets moved to chit chat anyway.

 

[stevem50]

and i will say again... this wasnt for opinions it was a request for videos...

i should have been clearer in the original post as how i phrased it leaves room for interpretation. it was a carry over from another thread. i am looking for video to catalog to give a prospective motor and esc buyer a way to make his decision from a point of view they dont have. see it running. not for ME to decide which is better, but for the buyer of equipment. that is as clear as i can put it, i went back to the first post and tried to be more specific

 

[crawl-o-matic]

You have to understand that most of us have been doing this for a long time and run both types of motors in different rigs for different reasons so none of this is big news to us...I don't think that anyone is going to take the time to make a video of something that has no merit."thumbsup"

 

[johnnyh66]

I ran HH 14t Pullers on 6s (best brushed motors ever made in my opinion) in both my C2 and C3 comp rigs.
They are amazing motors with great start up, good speed and insane torque!
I felt they were the best all around motor.

But then, Tekin released the Pro4's.
The Pro4's are better in all aspects hands down.
Better low end, way more top end and awesome torque.
I run them in both my rigs now.

Here is my 14t Puller on 6s (bug) vs a Tekin Pro4 on 3s.
The 14t was the only motor that day that could match the Pro4 3300.
Up until this pull, the Pro4 didn't even need to apply throttle against most of the rigs, the drag brake was strong enough.
Keep in mind, the Sami weighs more than the Bug.

Holmes 14t Puller vs Tekin Pro4 - YouTube

 

[redsawacs]

to go along with what everyone else is saying here....

Last month i competed in my first club event. I won 2 of 4 events with my 27T/Axial AE-2/2s lipo set up. I wont the trail comp and the king of the hill. BUT, I had NO chance at the tractor pull and the tug of war.....Got my rig handed to me. Brushless setups ruled the roost there.

If you're trailin' or bashin' and you want performance and piece of mind, I think a smooth 2s/3s brushless set up with the right gears will win over a brushed set up (depending on the manufacturer) SIMPLY do to lack of wear parts in a brushless system. In my experience, Brushless set ups are more reliable over time and require less maintenance. If this is your bag, buy that.

Over all, again, I'll say what everyone else has already stated...Depends on your intended purpose and pocket book (yes, pocketbook! Everyone knows our ladies control what we spend on this hobby)

 

[stevem50]

i give up- you guys simply wont accept that my intention is to offer a way to pick a motor from VIDEO clips with a loose base line as refrence... i quit

 

[crawl-o-matic]

We get it...trust me

 

[TexasSP]

Everyone know's nitros make the best crawler motors anyway.

This is kinda like KY Jelly VS Astroglide, different strokes for different folks.

 

[Evesniper]

Wow misleading title.