Brushless Motor System Recommendations?

[RCALLOYS]

Hello all

Well, I've read and read here and elsewhere for brushless motor ideas. This isn't for a crawler, kicking around the idea of doing a killer brushless system in my Wild Willy 2 :twisted: Right now I am running 8 cells and a 17x2 motor. Little booger is pretty damn fast BUT as always can be faster. Sooooo, been looking at brushless stuff. JIA said a Novak 5800 system would be plenty. Must admit, don't know squat about brushless stuff so hoping someone can help me. Did learn you can tune quite a bit of the parameters via the ESC though. What I am looking for is crazy balls out RPM out of a system. Goal is to try and get Willy to tickle 40mph without (A. Bursting into flames or (B. Taking flight and/or going into orbit. :mrgreen: Had him out last weekend and had a horrible roll over accident. No big damage but Willy's arm did leave his upper torso and bounce across the parking lot. All is well, little CA and he is ready to fly again. Any help would be super. OR, maybe point me in the right direction so I can learn myself about this stuff. ;-)

 

[firstumustcrawl]

i think you should get the biggest one they make yah know the old saying go big or go home

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

it depends on how much you want to spend. the novak is basically a 380 brushless armature with a huge heavy can to hide it. i say basically because it is exactly the same dimentions as a 380L armature. the novak works, but its just about the weakest system you can buy and you are verrry limited with motor choices with that esc.

if this is an in the future project, wait for castle creations 1/10th brushless esc. if you want some big power now, you could get the barracuda 125 esc. it needs a cooling fan though.

if you want it now now now and you want a car specific esc, the mgm and warrior brands are good. it is hard to find them in stock though because mgm is releasing a new version with a computer link (following castles lead) and warrior's sell quick.

Jamie at starluck rc knows the latest and greatest. i would suggest you email him for some reccomendations starluckrc@charter.net .


my opinion on the motor, get a short can 540 that spins around 4000 rpm to 5000 rpm per volt. that way you can run on 6 cells and have it crazy fast, or run on 9 cells and totally blow up your tranny and throw your tires off the rims. my stampede will wheelie at 3/4 throttle with my lehner basic 5000 and 12 cells. it will go past 50, i just cant control it.

 

[RCALLOYS]

Thanks for the super info JRHolmes! So brushless motors are rated rpm per volt? I'll have to do some more reading, appreciate the info.! :mrgreen:

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

no problem man, ive got lots of info in my head about brushless. once brushless controllers were available, i have been running them in all of my planes and cars. i dont have one plane with a brushed motor, and i own 6 planes.

Kt = 1352.4 / Kv

1. this equation works for all motors.
2. Torque Constant = Kt measured in ounce/inches per amp
3. Kv is your Velocity constant in rpm per volt

you can use this equation to find out many things about a motor. all motors can be rated in rpm per volt, but brushless motors are harder to manufacture with strict rpm/volt ratings (stupid brushes) and ROAR legal motors have dumbed down the general population about motors (so how many winds are these brushless motors?).

for every vehicle there is a motor that will work the best. a 540 short can brushless has the amp draw and rpm features that suit lighter (1/10th) rigs better. how much does your wild willy weigh? i should have asked that first. Also, how many cells do you want to be running?

 

[microgoat]

i'm surprised you haven't shredded the tranny already

Hacker makes some very nice motors, also quite expensive, but nothing's too good for your Willy, right? as for the ESC, the Novak is a good one, and LRP just introduced the Sphere, which does brushed and brushless motors so you can go back to a brushed motor if the Hacker's too fast for ya.

There's no shortage of brushless ESC's out there, but personally i favor the Castle Creations units (and not just because they're giving me another one for my mid-motor Mini-T project). they're made here in the USA and have a real tech support staff that actually knows an endbell from a dumbbell. Their Mamba Maxx 1/10 ESC should be out soon and if it's half as good as the Mamba-25 it'll be the cat's azz. Mamba Maxx will also do brushed motors as well.

confused yet?

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

i'm surprised you haven't shredded the tranny already

i did in the first 30 seconds (on 6 cells). steel idler fixed it. im waiting for the diff to go but it hasnt.

if you are referring to the wild willy, then im suprised too, and if he goes brushless he will also be making an all steel driveline the next day :lol:


the novak and lrp brushless controller wont control sensorless brushless. that limits you to only the stock roar legal motors. no hacker, no lehner, no pletty etc... in other words you cant have a very powerful motor. the novak system is heavy too.

it might seem like i bash ROAR and novak a lot, but if you are not racing with the setup, then you will be dissapointed with the performance compared to other systems. like i said, it is a 380L brushless hiding in a 540 can

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

i think you should get the biggest one they make yah know the old saying go big or go home

in most cases i would say hell yeah, but there are some brushless motors out there that will strip the skin off an elephant.

the castle creation software actually softens brushless motors (if you want) a nice 540 xl can 7 turn brushless motor will twist mip cvd's like they were cheap steel. the initial torque shock of these motors is just nuts. there is not a ball diff that i have found that will stand up to a hot brushless motor. ok, brushless rant must stop now.

 

[RCALLOYS]

Hmmmm, this is getting confusing (for me at least). I've heard of Hacker and Lehner and obviously Novak. Guess I need to do some hunting and see which would best suit Willy. He weighs a little over 5.5lbs without a battery. I haven't shot him with my radar gun but we guessed he was screaming along at 20-25mph with the current set up. Silly goal in my head is to get him to meet or break the 40mph barrier. Right now with the 8 cells and 17x2 it is pretty easy to drive him. Back tires smoke for about 25-30ft and then hook up. Wheelie bars are set about .125-.187 off the ground so it plants the rear suspension, unloads the front and runs on the bars for 15ft or so.
Thinking with a brushless it might be easier to "roll into" the throttle then light it up. Gonna lengthen the wheelbase a bit more over the inch I've already done. I will be doing a lot of reading but JRHolmes, you seem to know your stuff. Perhaps you could recommend a full system for Willy? :mrgreen: Not sure how many cells I'll run in a brushless set up, probably start with a 6 stick pack then hang my extra 2 cell pack on to make 8 cells total. If I understand correctly, for example a 5000rpm per volt motor would spin 40,000rpm @ 8 cells correct? Hee hee, that sounds like what we're looking for! Look forward to more info, my brain is hungry.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

the warrior 9920 or mgm compro 120 would do well as an esc. 200 bux for either. the warrior is a 99 amp, 20 cell max controller while the mgm is a 120 amp 12 cell max controller. Those are the best two available at the moment, but not the best two made. i would recommend the mgm over the warrior because of the extra amp rating. The Castle Creation esc will be above the crowd when it releases.

i didnt bargain on your wild willy being so heavy. if you want higher speeds i would reccomend a slower spinning motor so that it doesnt get so hot. faster spinning = higher amp draw (per that little formula i gave you) all motors in a given series (i.e. lehner basic xl series) have the same power output. if you change the rpm per volt, then the amperage has to adjust accordingly.

my updated recommendation for a motor is a lehner basic xl 2800 (super nice $150 motor with gobs and gobs of power for 12-14 cells). you could also go with a feigao 9L or 10L ($80, 12-16 cells). the 9L is slighly faster spinning and wouldnt be quite as flexable for 10 pound plus rigs. both will push an all aluminum emaxx to 50 pretty easy. just gotta watch the heat especially with the 9L. both have 5mm shafts, the 9L comes with an 1/8th inch shaft from most suppliers but it isnt approved for rc car use (read void warrenty)

i have a 10L that i ran in my emaxx on 12 cells. it weighed about 8 pounds withought batts, and i hit 37mph geared pretty modestly. i got 18 minute runs routinely with unmatched 3000 junk packs. you can gear these things to the moon and back on lighter rigs. that way you could run less cells and still get some speed (with super super long runtime)


I also ran a lehner basic xl5000 in the emaxx. it went about 45 and got really hot on 9 cells. i smoke 3 cells in a matched pack. you HAVE to run matched packs with the fast spinning motors, especially the long can ones.

unfortunatly, your rig is right on the bubble weight wise. its not a stadium truck, and its not an emaxx. most motors imported are focused for performance around those two vehicles. if you get one that i suggest, it will work great and still be usable in just about anything you can cram 12 cells into. if you got a motor meant for a stadium truck, it would get really hot and you couldnt bash for very long before you had to let it cool down.


whew.

 

[DISTURBIN' tha PEACE]

Wow.......I will ask YOU all of my BL Q's from now on. You make it sound like the 5800 is not so good? I use it in my PRO 4 but it is just for drifting :mrgreen: I do get about an hour of run time w/ the new 3800 packs from intellect though :mrgreen: Didn't really look into who else make BL systems

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

You make it sound like the 5800 is not so good?

its not bad. it did let the public know what brushless was. its just half the power of other setups, and a few ounces heavier. the limiting factor on more powerful setups is your batteries. find out how many batteries you will run, and go from there.

 

[DISTURBIN' tha PEACE]

the limiting factor on more powerful setups is your batteries. find out how many batteries you will run, and go from there.

I have a 3-cell Li-Po :twisted:

 

[JamisonWorkshop]

Not to hijack. but what would be the way to go on my rustler. I have a toy monster racer coming that needs an ESC so I myswell use my XL-1 in it, and get something crazy for the rustler.

I am wanting moderatly faster and most importantly long runtimes using 6 cells. 3300 gp pack.

I am willing to wait on the castle creations setup. Is the runtime all in how you program it.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

for some pretty fast speed in a rustler, get a feigao 8s or lehner basic 4200. you will need matched packs to get decent performance, but unmatched packs will work ok. rutimes will be around 15 to 20 minutes depending on gearing and if you packs are matched.

the runtime isnt affected much by programming, unless you limited the throttle to less than full power.

 

[JamisonWorkshop]

what would you have to do to get runtimes up over 30 minutes.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

gear it really slow with 3800's, or use a $250 lipoly pack with 8000mah. 8000 packs will go past 40 minutes of runtime. starluck knows the skinny on lipo more than me, he has raced with them

 

[skid]

Not trying to plug Novak, but the do have some new stuff out. GTB controller and velociti motors. Motors rated at 5.5 or 6.5 turn I believe. I run a Lehner basic 4200 in my xxx4 and am amazed every time I run it.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

I run a Lehner basic 4200 in my xxx4 and am amazed every time I run it.

that is one great motor for stadium trucks and stampede style trucks. have you tried it on 12 cells yet? if you watch the heat and your diff you will be more than amazed!

 

[emaxxjeremy]

you mean something like this

but seriously talk to jamie at starluck, he wiull hook you up since you have done us well with stuff.