Integy New Chassis and Product Copying in the US

[3Samudra]

i stand taller on a dollar's worth of rock than a dollar's worth of sand...it's all about integrity after all is'nt it ''''''''


camouse...the last car on the train...

 

[binaryterror]

Edit: One side note. Using the term "Patent Pending" knowing an application has not been made is considered a federal crime and can mean major financial fines and/or prison time. It can be tempting as an independent inventor with little investment capital to create a false "Patent Pending" designation, but this could lead to a serious charge of trademark or patent infringement

That isn't true. You have from date of first concept and design 1 year to file a patent and during that 1 year you are entitled to mark a product that is as far as you the inventor knows is an idea that is of new design or utility.

You guys and your patents are funny. Morals and patents have absolutely nothing in common. Last time I checked the American economy is based on Capitalism. Capitalism is nothing more than head to head business, it might be bad for vendors, but then maybe the vendors need to re-assess their business models.

There are more than 1 type of patent. I have 1 utility and two on one item pending at this point. Patents are not cheap and design patents SHOULD NEVER be sought after unless you get it to help solidify a utility patent.

A design patent is basically a patent on the design NOT function or theory of an item. Basically in laymans terms take a picture of the invention by itself and that is what you are patenting, just the looks of the piece. You can include dashed lines to help the patent by say adding a dashed line of the part this new design patented part might go onto or improve.

A utility patent is the one to seek. This patent doesn't really concern the physical appearance of an item, it focuses directly on the functional side of things. These are best when combined with design patents. Reading a utility patent is probably like reading a tax code book to most. The terms used are always as vague and broad as can be. This is done to help widen the scope of the utility, to grab as much coverage as possible. The "claims" refer to drawings, these claims make the patent. Good claims are worth their price because that is what is fought about in a case.

Patent infringement fighting is even more hilarious. #1 no vendor on this site has the proveable loss needed to start a suit nor the capital to keep it going. Most utility and design infringement cases start at $1 million in legal fees to take the full course, often some cost well over that. My company has been in many and it is a pain for everyone involved. The only thing most small companies can do is issue a "Cease and Desist" letter. Which is a note that if you do not stop making the infringing item you will be processed to court. Smart companies might stop, some might gamble on the company with the patent taking on the cost of a court case.

Then there is the case of prior art which looks at existing patents to see if new ones are allowed, it also can be subject to any unpatented design. Lets say I make part A at home and someone else makes a copy of part A and states patent pending and gets the patent by knowingly leaving my prior art out, their copied item patent becomes instantly null and void as long as I can show proof of my first date of submission to any public forum or another person.

Sadly in this realm of a hobby industry I feel patents and threats of patent pending to be a joke and a waste of time, money and energy.

 

[binaryterror]

If it isnt patented it is fair game for anyone to reproduce until said patent is approved and issued and placed on the product as John stated.....

Again another false statement. If I make a part A and begin patenting it (some patent can takes years to be fully awarded), from that day forward I am covered no matter what. So you making a copy even without me stating Patent Pending is an infringement. I would then make you aware trhough the "Cease and Desist" letter, and then things go from there.

 

[clodstall]

http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93816

ok thanks.

 

[John]

That isn't true. You have from date of first concept and design 1 year to file a patent and during that 1 year you are entitled to mark a product that is as far as you the inventor knows is an idea that is of new design or utility.

One side note. Using the term "Patent Pending" knowing an application has not been made is considered a federal crime and can mean major financial fines and/or prison time. It can be tempting as an independent inventor with little investment capital to create a false "Patent Pending" designation, but this could lead to a serious charge of trademark or patent infringement

The statement is true. What it means is you can't list a product "patent pending" unless you have actually submitted a provisional or patent application to the USPTO. In other words the correct documents need to be submitted. YOu can't just list something "patent pending" because you think it should be. That is my understanding of the statement.

 

[John]

Again another false statement. If I make a part A and begin patenting it (some patent can takes years to be fully awarded), from that day forward I am covered no matter what. So you making a copy even without me stating Patent Pending is an infringement. I would then make you aware trhough the "Cease and Desist" letter, and then things go from there.

It's an infringement after the patent is awarded. The "Cease and Desist" letter comes after the patent is awarded. When you send the "Cease and Desist" letter, an official patent number should be listed in the content of the letter. That is my understanding of the term.

 

[Highmark]

I don't think that the issue at hand was necessarily that integy copied the design of the pimp cane, or The Stick, but that they're trying to compete with them, which is really kind of annoying. :lol:

It seems as though it's struck a serious chord with you though.

 

[Highmark]

It's an infringement after the patent is awarded. The "Cease and Desist" letter comes after the patent is awarded. When you send the "Cease and Desist" letter, an official patent number should be listed in the content of the letter. That is my understanding of the term.

That's correct, which is the reason why there is often a race to patent items. Patent pending is really a sort of warning not to go into production because someone could possibly sue your ass off later.

 

[John]

That's correct, which is the reason why there is often a race to patent items. Patent pending is really a sort of warning not to go into production because someone could possibly sue your ass off later.

Yes, that is my understanding. You can still go into production, but if someone has a "patent pending" on a similar item, the law suit would begin if you continue to infringe after the patent has been issued and after the "Cease and Disist" letter has been received. Up to that point it is up to the potential infringer whether to continue spending money on production equipment and materials, if there is a chance they may have to "Cease and Disist" the business at a later time.

 

[binaryterror]

You guys need to read better or spend more money on patents then. We as a company have over 20 utility patents and 50+ design patents. We have 3 different patent attorney offices we work with on all of our patents to ensure we have the best and broadest claims.

You can list patent pending rather freely. We do it all the time as told to us by our patent attorneys. After the 1 year passes and we do not file, we must remove the patent pending on all future shipments. If you think I'm wrong I'll gladly give you the phone number of our #1 attorney and you can speak with him about it.

Again as I mentioned you can issue a cease and desist on a product in pending status. We've done it many times to our competitors over the years. You must note the USPTO case number which in effect is another way to find the patent information. I think what you posted is from either internet research or a poor choice in legal counsel. So if a patent takes 4 years to be finally granted, you think you have to wait 4 years to issue a cease and desist, when in those 4 years your business on that product could be smashed? Sure after it is granted you can go back and sue the infringing company for past damages, but since you waited 4 years your company went bankrupt over lost sales...now you have more legal bills and time spent?

 

[30percent]

Competition drives market consumer wins...

 

[binaryterror]

Competition drives market consumer wins...

Thats capitalism at its finest!

 

[John]

Patents aren't really the main issues here and I didn't intend the discussion to be focused on that, since patents really are non existent in the rc crawling industry. I apologize for leading people down that path. My intention and main focus for this thread was to debate the fact that small vendors copy and manufacture parts and pieces from some of the big companies all the time. What happens when the big companies start making similar products to the ones some of the specialty vendors make here on the forums? Will that be accepted with the small vendors? The chassis discussed in the first post is just the first example of what may be in the making for other products designed and produced by us vendors. With the high rate of growth this hobby is experiencing, it is bound to happen.

Is there anything we can do now?

Edit: rcc member binaryterror has more knowledge and understanding regarding the patent system and the rights of the inventor. If anyone needs more information on the patent subject, I would suggest getting in contact with him. Thanks binaryterror for your input on the subject.

 

[CRAWL_BOY]

IMHO The best small companies can do is put products out there, make as much money as fast as they can and expect the big boys to copy the ideas if they are good. You can fight with them if you wish but I suspect it would be rather pointless in the long run.

A better option might be a collaboration beneficial to both parties. Not sure how that would work out but at least there might be some profit to be made in the long run.

To bad their can't be a 'secret' ingredient to products like these.

 

[crawl rookie]

No one has pictures of the chassis in question or the original chassis?

I also found on the Hot-Racing site the same new beadlock wheels that CKRC is offering.

i'm almost sure that CKRC offers the same wheels from Hot racing themselfs,
they existited alot longer before CKRC was offering them but maybe im wrong :neutral:

 

[jbrandt]

I think the major difference is people who copy ideas for their own purposes (i.e. copying a popular axle mounted servo plate for YOUR rig), and those who copy ideas and turn around and sell them as if they were their own.

Most of the time, people post their designs and ideas on this site as a way to "field check" their designs and share them with the community. If they were concerned about protecting their invention, they wouldn't post templates.

It's a whole other story when someone buys a current vendor's widget (on this site or not) and then copies the design and markets it as their own.