New class to encourage newbs..

[Chris_The_Battery_Man]

I know this might not be well received, but I wanted to post up anyway.

We already have the sportsman class, which is not nationally recognized if I understand right. And I am not talking about the new 2.2S. So the sportsman class is a good one, but I still think it scares people off. At least locally because even in that class, you generally have to have a decently built rig to compete. You cant just go buy your off the shelf ax10 RTR and compete.


I am not sure how clubs are doing on a national level, but ours has suffered from major #'s loss over the last 2 years. Now I know some of it is the economy. A few people that left just couldnt afford to keep up. Some of it is other things. But I had a guy complain about the difficulty of the courses. And even that if he did build an MOA, as a newb, it would still kick his butt and he wouldnt finish. Which seems to be the pattern I am seeing.

One thing I have lightly observed about racing, is that you can go buy an RTR truck off the shelf, a couple batteries, and go race. Now you might not do well, but you can still go all the way around the track, have fun, and do it all for a couple hundred bucks. Then if you like it, you can start to upgrade your truck as you race it.


We don't have a class like that. I think we are starting to put a larger gap between the pro level drivers, and the people that want to get into it and start somewhere. Which I think is really hurting crawling expanding more. Now I know some of it is the lack of choices in RTR crawlers. But I really think we would benefit from some sort of spec class or something that limits what a guy can have to compete it in. That way, a dude with an RTR night crawler or ax10 can come out and have fun and do decent.

One of the biggest complaints I get, is when someone cant finish a course. Out here, it happens alot with the sportsman guys, or new guys starting in the MOA class. If they cant finish a course at a comp, and then dont finish at multiple comps, then they lost interest and we never see them. Some of that is course setup and time, but I really think that if we had a dedicated spec class with courses that were easier to complete, we would keep more people interested, and help the hobby grow.



I remember a few years back, we would sometimes see up to 30+ competitiors at a comp. Now we are lucky to get 10-12 total. The 2 things I see being different from back then are A: cost B: course difficulty. So I think a spec class that A: reduces cost B: reduces course difficulty would really help. Then you could get a guy out on a couple hundred dollar budget to come have fun. From there he could upgrade and practice until he can advance to the 2.2S class.


If we dont do something to help the beginners get a good taste, I think we will keep making the gap between the pro's and newbs bigger. Then eventually there will not be enough comp interest to do larger national level comps. But thats just my 2 cents.


Anyone have any thoughts here? I am just annoyed at how much less guys we have at comps these days....



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[hoghead5150]

I'm with you on this. At the last comp we had a few guys that were really new to the sport. On the second course we had several guys that couldn't make the first gate. I can see that we can't make the courses easy as the better drivers woudl be bored to death, and well, we aren't just driving around on flat ground.

For new guys to go out and spend $700+ on a rig and then go to a comp and not even be able to finish a course it's kind of disheartening. There needs to be a class for beginners that allows certain things to be upgraded but they wouldn't have to spend a fortune to be competitive. I think course design has alot to do with this type of class.

Also i've seen some new guys that have gone all out and built MOA rigs with well over $700 in them and come to find out they do not know how to drive them. This leads to more confusion and guys getting pissed off because there truck won't go where others will. They still are not competitive, get upset, and sell them off.

The sportsman class has become a pro builder class. No longer can you go buy a truck off the shelf and even come close to finishing a course. Typically we run our sportsman rigs on our pro courses. Without serious modifications to a sportsman rig it's nearly impossible to compete in this class.

The biggest problem i see around here tho is the fact that we don't have that many new drivers. I don't see the guys that have been comping for years wanting to downgrade a rig to run a new class. With the turnouts we have at comps, there wouldn't be enough new guys to make it worthwhile to even set up a course.

I think this is one of the reasons we are seeing a swing toward scalers. It doesn't take an arm and a leg to get one competitive for a scale comp. You can basically run a bone stock scx10 and at least finish.

 

[ROWDY RACING]

You get out what you put in.

It frustrates me when newbs come out to their first comp and don't win so they quit. It took me a year to win my first comp. I practiced and tuned, losing only made me hungrier to win, once I got a taste of victory I was hooked. Now don't get me wrong I still get my butt kicked at national level comps, but as long as I have fun and am competitive with the rest of the guys from my club that's good enough for me.

 

[shizzz]

Well, I'm not familiar so close with the situation you have there guys, but what I think is why not to make this way:
Suppose I'm a newb and I want compete. You/me/organizer get another ppl like me together having the first event in their career like. And once they/me have a certain count of wins/loss/taking parts in contests they can advance further. To 2.2s for example. By that time they will understand what they need to improve, wether their driving skills or rig or else.
I also can't disagree that a lot of pro guys are getting shafties. From this point of view it is very difficult for a newb to beat them. Simply the lack of exp and driving skills. So, may be, Chris is right and you need to make a kind of a beginner's class.

 

[ev0l]

I think people just do it for the wrong reason. I've been comping for a year, and I'm still not even close to winning. I still have a blast everytime I go just to hang out with the guys and drive some RC. It's such a departure from racing for me. So much more low stress and enjoyable. Just go drive and have fun. the rest usually falls into place "thumbsup"

 

[Chris_The_Battery_Man]

You get out what you put in.

It frustrates me when newbs come out to their first comp and don't win so they quit. It took me a year to win my first comp. I practiced and tuned, losing only made me hungrier to win, once I got a taste of victory I was hooked. Now don't get me wrong I still get my butt kicked at national level comps, but as long as I have fun and am competitive with the rest of the guys from my club that's good enough for me.

I think people just do it for the wrong reason. I've been comping for a year, and I'm still not even close to winning. I still have a blast everytime I go just to hang out with the guys and drive some RC. It's such a departure from racing for me. So much more low stress and enjoyable. Just go drive and have fun. the rest usually falls into place "thumbsup"

I don't think it has anything to do with winning. It's more of a shock value. If they come and dont finish a course, then they are super discouraged. If they were to show up, finish every course, and still finish last, they at least got to have the drive time and enjoy themselves.

Like I said about racing, Noobs can generally buy an RTR, and go run a track and have fun. Perhaps they dont do the best, but they have a better chance of going the whole race than the newbs to crawling do to finishing a course....

 

[ROWDY RACING]

I don't think it has anything to do with winning. It's more of a shock value. If they come and dont finish a course, then they are super discouraged. If they were to show up, finish every course, and still finish last, they at least got to have the drive time and enjoy themselves.

Like I said about racing, Noobs can generally buy an RTR, and go run a track and have fun. Perhaps they dont do the best, but they have a better chance of going the whole race than the newbs to crawling do to finishing a course....

I get what your saying, but for the most part we are adults here and should understand you are not going to be good at something when you first start out, it takes time. Last year at ECC I did not finish a single course, finished in 90 something place, and I had a blast doing it. This year at ECC I finished every coarse and finished 50th, and had the same amount of fun.

If enough people showed up at one of our clubs comps with box stock rigs, I would be happy to let them run their own class.

 

[bigstu]

This is my $.02 worth, so take it for what it is worth.. I think everyone here hits the nail on the head with regards to new competitors in general, regardless of class.
I see three issues when joining this hobby. #1 - cost. This is not a cheap sport. $700 will not get you a competitive MOA. Think $1000 and up, for a used rig, and I bet you are still going to shell out another $250 - $500 to be 100% ready to comp.
#2 - Lack of an amateur class. Simply put, right from the start, you are going to be comping against the big boys. I started attending competitive competitions three years ago in Missouri. 3 of the guys I competed with are or were state champs, have done well at national level comps, and are sponsored. Needless to say, I was a lamb in the wolves den, right from the start. And this leads me in to #3 - Lack of encouragement or help. For some reason, when someone gets something that they think is an edge, or gives them an advantage over the other guys, they don't want to share it with anyone. They hide it and don't share it.
I was VERY lucky. There were a bunch of us that purchased XR10s when they came out, so we all were learning what to do and what not to do. So we wouldn't hesitate to tell each other what we did for springs, shock oil, or even what motors we were running. The higher you get up the ladder, the less information is passed on down. So, what happens, a guy isn't sure what to buy, he doesn't know what to do when his car won't hook up, he doesn't even know his car isn't hooking up because he hasn't had someone ask him a simple question like, hey did you try this?

This comes from the heart and is 100% honest, after I went to Indy for the indoor champs, and I STUNK so bad, I seriously thought about getting rid of the comp truck and going to a scaler or something I would enjoy. At the lunch break, if someone walked up to me with 5-$100 bills, the truck and controller would have been gone and I would have been on here looking for the next project. It wasn't till after the 4th course of barely even making it half way did someone make a suggestion about changing the set up on my truck. And all they did was ask. Did you try this or that, it might help, this is what I saw. Simple words that did so much. I missed the last gate on course 5 by about 10 seconds and finished the 6th and final course. It was a very small victory, that was accomplished by someone simply asking a question.. Simply put. If someone doesn't enjoy what they are doing, they aren't going to be doing it for very much longer. Are you really that afraid of being beat, that you won't increase someone's enjoyment of a hobby?

This is my suggestion. Because this is something that was done in the past.
For a while, the number of 2.2 pro trucks had gone down. Not so low that we couldn't have a comp, but 6 trucks at a comp was pretty good. The sportsman guys didn't have the cash to compete with the pro trucks, and weren’t going to drop the coin to build one. So we did something very simple. A bypass on VERY tough gates. Any gate or turn where dig was going to be necessary, a bypass was allowed. There was no point penalty that went with it as long as your rig did not have a dig trans. It made it so the sportsman guys could be on a level field with the pro class guys. There were still sportsman and pro point totals, but the overall standings were still up for grabs.

As long as people continue to provide a little encouragement, a little guidance, and above all remember something simple - these are toys, this hobby will flourish.
I am not afraid to admit, the first time someone with a LCC, or a sportsman rig pulled of an obstacle that I couldn't, or beat me in the final scores for an event, it accomplished two things. It gave them some much needed confidence that they could do it. And it gave me a kick in the butt to practice and be a better driver. Honestly, some of the best times I have had crawling were playing follow the leader. Someone pulls off an obstacle and then everyone else tries to pull it off. If you couldn't quite get it, they would tell you, dig here - now let it suck down - power power - now 4 wheel drive. And guess what. You made it every time.

Hoghead also touched on something that I have seen more than once. Courses need to be set up so difficulty increases as the course goes on. Making the 1st or 2nd gate the most difficult accomplishes nothing, other than showing who practiced that impossible gate and learned the trick, before the comp. If a driver makes it 95% of the way there, they can see the finish line and it will drive them to get that last little bit, and make it next time. If they only make it 20% of the way, it becomes easier to turn around and go back to the beginning. We know where this leads.

 

[SINister]

I think you guys are missing the point of what Chris is saying. It's not about winning/losing or hanging out it's about how new people perceive the sport. Not everyone has the desire or resources to put into a 1k+ comp rig and that's the point. For every tricked out crawler there is probably 20-30 RTRs bouncing around backyards. When you talk about growing the sport it makes more sense to try attracting those people instead of the one person with a lot of expendable income. Spec classes have been around for a long time and they're popular for a reason. The class may not take off right away but I bet after a couple seasons and the word gets out it would.

 

[hoghead5150]

i think your missing the point. most new guys are still in sticker shock after dropping $500 or more to get into the sport. buying a rtr rig $350, charger $100, batteries $50. then they show up at a comp and find out that they are not anywhere near able to do the things they hoped for. their box stock rigs are good for playing around the house or with a couple friends but in the comp scene they are gonna have to spend another $400 to get competitive.

most people out there don't have the extra money to drop a grand on a hobby just to see if they like it knowing full well that if they don't they won't be able to get half their investment back if they sell out. a class for box stock (or close to it) would allow the newer guys to grow into the sport. i don't think this would hurt aftermarket support, i think it would help it. after running the rig the need or want to tackle harder obstacles always comes. it would also allow more of a learning curve allowing the new guys to see what works and what doesn't. better rigs would be built and more knowledge would be had.

it sucks to finish last EVERY time you run. there is no fun always being at the bottom. if you don't believe that, go buy a bone stock rtr ax10 and comp it in the pro class. i bet you don't have a very good time at all.

 

[ROWDY RACING]

It's mostly about driver skill, even with a spec class the better drivers will be at the top. I have seen great drivers with $300 rigs, kick $1000 plus dollar rigs with lesser drivers behind the wheel.

Again not bashing the idea, just sayin.

And as I stated before:
If enough people showed up at one of our clubs comps with box stock rigs, I would be happy to let them run their own class.

 

[EeePee]

This is the same conversation we (RCC) had when the Axial AX-10 first came out. It was a good idea in my opinion; we can use this thing as a Spec Class truck! Especially because at the time the only other options were a custom TLT or Clod.

If only we tried it back then...

 

[C*H*U*D]

The problem I see with a box stock class is durability. Many of the parts out there aren't just performance enhancers, but also add strength. I get more frustrated if my truck breaks every outing, then I do finishing last.

 

[EeePee]

The problem I see with a box stock class is durability.

Allowable, in the name of durability but not performance enhancing, upgrades are easy. For instance, anything aluminum made by Axial for the AX-10. Necessary? Not for everyone, as it depends how you drive. Or, learn how to drive better and not break your truck. That will go a long way in the name of top tier competition and finishing courses without repairs, possibly more so in the Spec Class.

 

[mindless]

Well a big issue is trying to have enough ppl with box stock trucks to run a stock class. Usually its one guy showing up not 8 guys showing up for there first comp to run together. Also like everything else no one is ever happy with a stock truck you buy it and want to mod right out of the box, wheels tires moters ect. The best is can say is if you have enough ppl run a pro and amateur class. And when new guys show up help help help. I know if someone new shows up to our comps first thing we do is say hi say how things go and then take a look at there rig. If they are running stock tires with no weights ill be the first to offer to run a set of my comp tires weighted and what not. Not try to tell them what they bought is junk but just that this will make things go better for them. Also if its a first comp we usually score accordingly im not saying let everything go but maybe stop the clock tell them what they should try to do or if they do 5 reverses in 5 seconds maybe just mark them for one and say use your reverse wisely and take a big one. just my 2 cents on the subject.

 

[Chris_The_Battery_Man]

I dont have enough time to read through all this yet, but to anyone out there in the Portland OR area, please see the below thread:

http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/oregon/381692-those-have-wanted-compete-please-read.html#post3714993

 

[C*H*U*D]

Or, learn how to drive better and not break your truck...

True, but since we are talking about new drivers, you could also say learn how to drive better and finish a course.

I think there will always be a problem with a beginner class until there is a way to limit who can enter. There was a lot of talk about Sporty being an introductory class, but everyone forgot that the Pro drivers all had Sporty rigs already...their old comp trucks. They just had to take their digs out, show up and start pounding everyone. Then to keep it interesting for them, the courses got harder and harder.

When I raced bicycles, you had to be licensed. Once you advanced to higher levels of competition, you could not go backwards. With RC Crawling, there is nothing to stop pro level drivers from entering whatever class they want.

Start a spec class with no restriction, and see how long it takes before the better drivers enter so they can have more drive time. Before long it will be only them competing with each other while another discussion starts here about how to attract new drivers.

 

[OKJeepin]

Courses need to be set up so difficulty increases as the course goes on. Making the 1st or 2nd gate the most difficult accomplishes nothing, other than showing who practiced that impossible gate and learned the trick, before the comp. If a driver makes it 95% of the way there, they can see the finish line and it will drive them to get that last little bit, and make it next time. If they only make it 20% of the way, it becomes easier to turn around and go back to the beginning. We know where this leads.

"thumbsup"


I just can't see another class forming to suit the new guys (like myself). Time constraints, rules, regs, the amount of people, setting up even more courses all play a role in making it tough to do.
Making the gates progressively harder seems to be an easy road to follow, I mean if you can't get past the first gate, and point out before you get started then damn, it makes me wanna take my crawler and throw it in a pond! :mrgreen:
I'm not sure how most of the "pro level" guys and gals feel about us new guys, but everyone of them I have met have been VERY helpful to me in showing me the error of my ways, and that means that some do care and are looking to bring more people into the sport.
I am an emotional driver, I get upset (at myself) when I can't complete a course or a gate, but when I can't even get thru the first gate, then it's hard for a new guy to keep his interest in the comp part of the hobby.

My problem is I have more money than skill! :lmao:

 

[EeePee]

Start a spec class with no restriction, and see how long it takes before the better drivers enter so they can have more drive time. Before long it will be only them competing with each other while another discussion starts here about how to attract new drivers.

Pretty much nailed it as to how the conversation went in the first talk of this Spec class idea that I can remember.

 

[MntnHntr]

I think a beginners class with gates progressing in difficulty is key. Most people understand they are not going to unbox a rig and instantly win comps. I believe people are most discouraged when the are wadded up on the first or second gate on what I call cliffhanger courses. A biggeners level series would give new people a chance to have some wheel time while competing, which would encourage them to stick around keep teying and get better. Every other sport out there has varying levels for this reason. On a side note I will be back out there (Washington/Oregon) competing when I can find work out there.