New Scale Rules Set : Radio Control Scale Association RCSA

[JohnRobHolmes]

I was approached to help with the RCSA and the timing was right since I have recently passed the RCCA torch on. I've been involved in "rules" of crawling since 2006 and seem to be drawn to them. The RCSA rules were based off the 2014 Sorcca document and have been refined for 4 years at the KNK TTC event. Not new rules, but new to be put into an official document.


The decision to pull the page was made without me, as I was travelling back from USTE. Once I learned of it, I petitioned Mike and Dan to keep it going. The backlash already happened, we couldn't just take it back, and so many people really wanted something like this. They agreed to keep going.


We are currently working with Sorcca for the goal of making transitions from RCSA to SORCCA events smooth. Some people want a less complicated option, but it will also be best if rigs could migrate easily back and forth between classes. There will be a distinct seperation between the two organizations. It is needed to be sure we don't influence their direction and they don't influence ours. Keeping classes very similar in definition is important if we are to keep the hobby together, that is our focus of working together.


I'm running events locally that are even simpler, my own rules I've been hacking on a few years. No scale points (being a USRCCA old timer it shouldn't be surprising), we are just simply going off of tire size classes at first until a bit more definition is needed. I'm also running simplified scoring with 3 to 6 people on a score card keeping each other honest for self scoring. 100 gate sections.



It's really just about having fun. Mike has been pulling huge numbers (testing and proof of popularity) at his KNK event - people love the rules. That is really all this is about, just filling a known void with something people enjoy. The fact that Mike, Dan, and myself are business owners is hard to avoid. We are involved in this hobby heavily on many levels, and one of them is hammering out documents that can guide people into hosting or attending fun events. I can guarantee that this is not a money making venture, but one that will cost us a lot of time without any direct financial gain. A project of passion, like most people involved in this strangely addicting hobby.


Thanks for reading.

 

[CM9000]

ive heard a lot of great feedback from the knk events from a few of my buddies who live near me.

aside from that.. I think class 0 and class 1 should scale point out at 30-35. class 2 and 3.. well I don't think they should go past 15-20. and dig should not be counted against in class 3. class 2 should have dig in my opinion but front only. some (a lot) will disagree but... that's just me.

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

Exactly. Poorly 3D printed Yeti coolers shouldn't be Band-Aids for bad driving or you just turned it into a car show.

One billion likes for you, sir.

 

[1BadJeepBruiser]

I was approached to help with the RCSA and the timing was right since I have recently passed the RCCA torch on. I've been involved in "rules" of crawling since 2006 and seem to be drawn to them. The RCSA rules were based off the 2014 Sorcca document and have been refined for 4 years at the KNK TTC event. Not new rules, but new to be put into an official document.


The decision to pull the page was made without me, as I was travelling back from USTE. Once I learned of it, I petitioned Mike and Dan to keep it going. The backlash already happened, we couldn't just take it back, and so many people really wanted something like this. They agreed to keep going.


We are currently working with Sorcca for the goal of making transitions from RCSA to SORCCA events smooth. Some people want a less complicated option, but it will also be best if rigs could migrate easily back and forth between classes. There will be a distinct seperation between the two organizations. It is needed to be sure we don't influence their direction and they don't influence ours. Keeping classes very similar in definition is important if we are to keep the hobby together, that is our focus of working together.


I'm running events locally that are even simpler, my own rules I've been hacking on a few years. No scale points (being a USRCCA old timer it shouldn't be surprising), we are just simply going off of tire size classes at first until a bit more definition is needed. I'm also running simplified scoring with 3 to 6 people on a score card keeping each other honest for self scoring. 100 gate sections.



It's really just about having fun. Mike has been pulling huge numbers (testing and proof of popularity) at his KNK event - people love the rules. That is really all this is about, just filling a known void with something people enjoy. The fact that Mike, Dan, and myself are business owners is hard to avoid. We are involved in this hobby heavily on many levels, and one of them is hammering out documents that can guide people into hosting or attending fun events. I can guarantee that this is not a money making venture, but one that will cost us a lot of time without any direct financial gain. A project of passion, like most people involved in this strangely addicting hobby.


Thanks for reading.

/Micdrop

Well said John, enjoyed catching up with you at USTE. See you next year if not sooner "thumbsup"

 

[JatoTheRipper]

I was approached to help with the RCSA and the timing was right since I have recently passed the RCCA torch on. I've been involved in "rules" of crawling since 2006 and seem to be drawn to them. The RCSA rules were based off the 2014 Sorcca document and have been refined for 4 years at the KNK TTC event. Not new rules, but new to be put into an official document.


The decision to pull the page was made without me, as I was travelling back from USTE. Once I learned of it, I petitioned Mike and Dan to keep it going. The backlash already happened, we couldn't just take it back, and so many people really wanted something like this. They agreed to keep going.


We are currently working with Sorcca for the goal of making transitions from RCSA to SORCCA events smooth. Some people want a less complicated option, but it will also be best if rigs could migrate easily back and forth between classes. There will be a distinct seperation between the two organizations. It is needed to be sure we don't influence their direction and they don't influence ours. Keeping classes very similar in definition is important if we are to keep the hobby together, that is our focus of working together.


I'm running events locally that are even simpler, my own rules I've been hacking on a few years. No scale points (being a USRCCA old timer it shouldn't be surprising), we are just simply going off of tire size classes at first until a bit more definition is needed. I'm also running simplified scoring with 3 to 6 people on a score card keeping each other honest for self scoring. 100 gate sections.



It's really just about having fun. Mike has been pulling huge numbers (testing and proof of popularity) at his KNK event - people love the rules. That is really all this is about, just filling a known void with something people enjoy. The fact that Mike, Dan, and myself are business owners is hard to avoid. We are involved in this hobby heavily on many levels, and one of them is hammering out documents that can guide people into hosting or attending fun events. I can guarantee that this is not a money making venture, but one that will cost us a lot of time without any direct financial gain. A project of passion, like most people involved in this strangely addicting hobby.


Thanks for reading.

I'm glad you talked them into continuing on with this! It should benefit everybody IMO.

No scale points is the way it should be! Do F1 cars get qualifying spots based on the paint schemes of the cars? Nope. A race and crawling competition should be all about driving performance.

I like what you're doing. Thank you! "thumbsup"

One billion likes for you, sir.

There's a first for everything, right? :lmao:

Thanks! "thumbsup"

 

[Greatscott]

Exactly. Poorly 3D printed Yeti coolers shouldn't be Band-Aids for bad driving or you just turned it into a car show.

This is my biggest beef with SORRCA rules, scale points weight too much into the actual competition. Give 20 scale points max, this is giving the guy a two-gate bonus for the class if his rig has the points. It rewards the guy's (or gal's) efforts to make the rig more scale, but it keeps the driving portion of the comp in perspective.

No matter who writes the rules, or how well they are written, someone will always bitch about them, and will try to bend them to their will.

 

[Highmark]

The biggest issue I have with sorcca is 100% in the scale points setup they use. The scale points offset ability. So rather than building a rig that is capable most just throw a bunch of "scale accessories" at it and head to the comps.

Exactly. Poorly 3D printed Yeti coolers shouldn't be Band-Aids for bad driving or you just turned it into a car show.

This is my biggest beef with SORRCA rules, scale points weight too much into the actual competition. Give 20 scale points max, this is giving the guy a two-gate bonus for the class if his rig has the points. It rewards the guy's (or gal's) efforts to make the rig more scale, but it keeps the driving portion of the comp in perspective.

No offense, but I think 3/4 of you guys complain about this type of stuff don't really understand the rules in the first place. Non-functional accessories garner your a a whole -6 points (if you have all of them) which translates to -3 points per course (points are awarded at 50% per course, rounded down). People complain that scale comp stuff all comes down to bolting coolers and other BS but in fact it's only a small fraction of the points. Fact is, without the scale points you all might as well be competing with comp crawlers as there is no benefit to adding scale items, and no serious competitor is going to build something that makes them less competitive without some incentive.

 

[JatoTheRipper]

No offense, but I think 3/4 of you guys complain about this type of stuff don't really understand the rules in the first place. Non-functional accessories garner your a a whole -6 points (if you have all of them) which translates to -3 points per course (points are awarded at 50% per course, rounded down). People complain that scale comp stuff all comes down to bolting coolers and other BS but in fact it's only a small fraction of the points. Fact is, without the scale points you all might as well be competing with comp crawlers as there is no benefit to adding scale items, and no serious competitor is going to build something that makes them less competitive without some incentive.

Most people in the 1:1 world don't compete with Yeti coolers and other dead weight tied to their rigs...

 

[MAC FAB]

I don't have a dog in this fight but wonder, why not duplicate what they do in SCORE or BITD off road racing? Each class is defined to vehicle definition, powerplant options and suspension definition. Throw a "driver" in your rig to look scale and go compete. Who cares what tire size you run, the other class requirements define how well your vehicle will perform. Sure the TTs run 40" tires, because they can. Lesser low budget classes are more stringent to tire requirements powerplant, vehicle dimensions......and what else is permissible. Box stock crawler class, modified and unlimited. Linked, leaf spring. Seems that would simplify life dramatically, right? Or am I totally missing the boat? I'm trying to organize baja style stuff, the above is the model.

 

[Highmark]

Most people in the 1:1 world don't compete with Yeti coolers and other dead weight tied to their rigs...

So the rules are too specific, and too complicated, but you want them to specifically define what scale junk (which you hate in the first place) someone can toss in the bed of a truck, at a competition that you'll never go to, for less than 5% of the total points available. Got it. :ror:

 

[JatoTheRipper]

So the rules are too specific, and too complicated, but you want them to specifically define what scale junk (which you hate in the first place) someone can toss in the bed of a truck, at a competition that you'll never go to, for less than 5% of the total points available. Got it. :ror:

Now you're just making shit up.

Scale accessories shouldn't count for points. I said that from the start.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

No offense, but I think 3/4 of you guys complain about this type of stuff don't really understand the rules in the first place. Non-functional accessories garner your a a whole -6 points (if you have all of them) which translates to -3 points per course (points are awarded at 50% per course, rounded down). People complain that scale comp stuff all comes down to bolting coolers and other BS but in fact it's only a small fraction of the points. Fact is, without the scale points you all might as well be competing with comp crawlers as there is no benefit to adding scale items, and no serious competitor is going to build something that makes them less competitive without some incentive.

Great point. Because 3/4 of people who are heavily involved don't really understand (or relate to?) the SORCCA rules, the RCSA was welcomed with quite a lot of open arms.


I think a "comp class" with big bodies and wheelbase length frames would do extremely well. I guess we will see this year at my events how many folks get pulled in.

 

[Highmark]

Great point. Because 3/4 of people who are heavily involved don't really understand (or relate to?) the SORCCA rules, the RCSA was welcomed with quite a lot of open arms.


I think a "comp class" with big bodies and wheelbase length frames would do extremely well. I guess we will see this year at my events how many folks get pulled in.

Consider me puzzled John. If we're talking factions 3/4 (being generous) of the RSCA rules are direct copy/pasts of SORCCA - let's not conflate the amount of people who have nothing better to do than shit on SORCCA with supposed support of RCSA, lest we forget that you all almost shut the thing down due to negative response. IMO you all are going down the right path of working together to standardize as much as you can, but you can't do that then talk shit here too.

You all did the 'trail' thing with USRCCA. I agree that it would be a great fit for a lot of people (myself included), but we have to actually get people to show up to comps.

 

[Greatscott]

No offense, but I think 3/4 of you guys complain about this type of stuff don't really understand the rules in the first place. Non-functional accessories garner your a a whole -6 points (if you have all of them) which translates to -3 points per course (points are awarded at 50% per course, rounded down). People complain that scale comp stuff all comes down to bolting coolers and other BS but in fact it's only a small fraction of the points.

I am not talking about non-function items, but the entire scale point system. 20 points max.

Fact is, without the scale points you all might as well be competing with comp crawlers as there is no benefit to adding scale items, and no serious competitor is going to build something that makes them less competitive without some incentive.

Yes, in my humble opinion, that would be wonderful.

 

[BigSki]

I am not talking about non-function items, but the entire scale point system. 20 points max.



Yes, in my humble opinion, that would be wonderful.

If no one wants 'scale points' or a scale vehicle, then why not just make a 'comp only' class and let the scale guys enjoy their version of fun?

 

[WHITE-TRASH]

If no one wants 'scale points' or a scale vehicle, then why not just make a 'comp only' class and let the scale guys enjoy their version of fun?

Prior to rcsa's advent of class 2.5 and a few local groups there was no place for what amounts to a comp rig from 2008ish. No full scale points, no win.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

Consider me puzzled John. If we're talking factions 3/4 (being generous) of the RSCA rules are direct copy/pasts of SORCCA - let's not conflate the amount of people who have nothing better to do than shit on SORCCA with supposed support of RCSA, lest we forget that you all almost shut the thing down due to negative response. IMO you all are going down the right path of working together to standardize as much as you can, but you can't do that then talk shit here too.

You all did the 'trail' thing with USRCCA. I agree that it would be a great fit for a lot of people (myself included), but we have to actually get people to show up to comps.

The people who talk down about Sorcca probably arent supporting RCSA either man, lets be honest. You made the point about many people not fully understanding Sorcca, I agree and conclude the RCSA document was welcomed because it is easier to digest. Easier option, easier to appeal to regular guys. This isn't me shit talking, this is me speaking to the situation. I wouldn't be a platinum sponsor of Scale Nats if I was going to come here and talk down about it, so please stop reading malice into my statements. I fully support and respect Sorcca and can also honestly say that it is not for the majority of hobbyists.


I had nothing to do with the day of "shutting down". Completely against it. Can't please everybody, all I care about is the people that ARE pleased, having fun, and planning new events for the year. I wouldn't have stuck my neck out to put effort behind this if I didn't feel it would be a positive thing for the world. I would have liked to have better communication with sorcca before the release, but the release being around my travels to USTE gummed up my involvement. What is done is done and we are working as hard as possible to ensure the best possible outcome.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

I'm also doing my own trail events this year, with my own ruleset. Not SORCCA, RCSA or WRCCA , because I need to build the local scene from the bottom up and it is difficult to try and have folks step into already established complexity. I hope to have a plan of action to present to the WRCCA after 2018 to give locals a blueprint for rebuilding or building a scene.

 

[Highmark]

The people who talk down about Sorcca probably arent supporting RCSA either man, lets be honest. You made the point about many people not fully understanding Sorcca, I agree and conclude the RCSA document was welcomed because it is easier to digest. Easier option, easier to appeal to regular guys. This isn't me shit talking, this is me speaking to the situation. I wouldn't be a platinum sponsor of Scale Nats if I was going to come here and talk down about it, so please stop reading malice into my statements. I fully support and respect Sorcca and can also honestly say that it is not for the majority of hobbyists.

I think I misinterpreted this statement :

Because 3/4 of people who are heavily involved don't really understand (or relate to?) the SORCCA rules, the RCSA was welcomed with quite a lot of open arms.

I took that as you being a smart ass and saying that not even SORCCA really gets SORCCA. That's my bad, upon reading it again I get what your saying and sorry I shot back so harshly.

I agree, the full rules are daunting for folks, but I wish clubs would really take the whole 'make modifications as necessary' thing to heart and just simplify the rules for their area. The RCSA rules are a nice alternative and I think once you guys work through some things it will be helpful for new folks.

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

There's a first for everything, right? :lmao:

Thanks! "thumbsup"

:ror:

Just because we argue about one thing doesn't mean we can't agree on another. "thumbsup"

No scale points is the way it should be!

I agree, but probably not for the same reason.

Scale points used to mean something when people had to make their own stuff. Now they don't. Originality and craftsmanship doesn't mean a damn thing at the tech table, and to me that used to be the heart of the scale scene.

A...crawling competition should be all about driving performance.

I know I'm going to catch flak for this, but there are comp classes for that. IMO the push for performance has really muddied the scale waters, just as the awkward but brief push to make comp rigs more realistic and relatable muddied their waters.