Ryft hardened diff gears?

[NickelPlate]

Hey fellow Ryft owners,

I blew my first set of diff gears in the front differential and had to order another set. They're not broken they're just worn down pretty badly. Unfortunately the stock gears look like cintered metal and not hardened steel like the rest of the drive train . I'm afraid this is going to be a weak point and at nearly $20 a set including tax this could get a little expensive long term. Does anyone make (aftermarket or otherwise) a set of hardened steel gears?

Thanks,

NP

[meatmonkey]

There is currently no aftermarket diff gears available. Your options include adding a Tekno 13x16x.1 shim into the recess of the ring gear to tighten the mesh of the internal spider gears, as well as better support the stock thrust washers, and use really thick oil to slow the diff action. The 1 million weight included with the kit certainly isn't 1 million weight. For comparison I filled one with stock oil, and the other with 1 million weight Associated brand oil. The diff with Associated oil is nearly twice as stiff as the one with the stock oil.

You'll still break/wear them out, it'll just take longer. Many are converting to spools until the aftermarket has a real solution. I'm absolutely baffled how these chintzy, soft, poorly meshed diff gears made it into production. IMO it's the biggest flaw of the Ryft platform.

[NickelPlate]

Thanks for the tip I'll pick up some of those. I feel the same way especially seeing they went to the trouble of using hardened steel gears everywhere else. This car has so much power and needs reinforced differential gears.

Originally Posted by meatmonkey

There is currently no aftermarket diff gears available. Your options include adding a Tekno 13x16x.1 shim into the recess of the ring gear to tighten the mesh of the internal spider gears, as well as better support the stock thrust washers, and use really thick oil to slow the diff action. The 1 million weight included with the kit certainly isn't 1 million weight. For comparison I filled one with stock oil, and the other with 1 million weight Associated brand oil. The diff with Associated oil is nearly twice as stiff as the one with the stock oil.

You'll still break/wear them out, it'll just take longer. Many are converting to spools until the aftermarket has a real solution. I'm absolutely baffled how these chintzy, soft, poorly meshed diff gears made it into production. IMO it's the biggest flaw of the Ryft platform.

[Timmahh]

Not yet. Vitavon has 7075 diff cups and hardened ring and pinions but not gears yet.


Just spools from Vitavon and Treal, and Lockers from Vitavon and Axial.

I asked Josh from Vanquish about hardened diff gears about a month ago, and he said almost certainly.
So now its just a matter of who and when...
But you're right the soft metal is bad, and the design has a big flaw. They are trying to use an Oring to to support the shim, which is getting hella forces from that 1Million diff fluid and those support ridges on the ring gear and diff cup end. If that ridge was a large (1/8th inch wide) Flat, that alone would probably help stop the deformation of the shim, which allows more lash in the gear mesh in the diff.


I locked my R and C and rebuilt my front, but in just a pack or 2, the front is already starting to skip. So I'll put the last locker in and hope Vanquish or Treal or Vitavon gets us setup.

[NickelPlate]

So just to clarify you add one Tekno shim to each ring gear in addition to the stock shims?

Thanks,

NP

Originally Posted by meatmonkey

There is currently no aftermarket diff gears available. Your options include adding a Tekno 13x16x.1 shim into the recess of the ring gear to tighten the mesh of the internal spider gears, as well as better support the stock thrust washers, and use really thick oil to slow the diff action. The 1 million weight included with the kit certainly isn't 1 million weight. For comparison I filled one with stock oil, and the other with 1 million weight Associated brand oil. The diff with Associated oil is nearly twice as stiff as the one with the stock oil.

You'll still break/wear them out, it'll just take longer. Many are converting to spools until the aftermarket has a real solution. I'm absolutely baffled how these chintzy, soft, poorly meshed diff gears made it into production. IMO it's the biggest flaw of the Ryft platform.

[NickelPlate]

Thanks for the info. Yeah I've contemplated locking the front. I think what's happening is even with the sway bar kit the right front tire lifts off the ground and spins like crazy because that's the side bevel gear that seems to have the most wear. It gets to a point where it's completely disengaged from the driveline and then the car handling just completely goes down the tubes. It's not great to begin with, but the car is a blast doing what it was designed for which is hill climbing like the full size bouncers.

Originally Posted by Timmahh

Not yet. Vitavon has 7075 diff cups and hardened ring and pinions but not gears yet.


Just spools from Vitavon and Treal, and Lockers from Vitavon and Axial.

I asked Josh from Vanquish about hardened diff gears about a month ago, and he said almost certainly.
So now its just a matter of who and when...
But you're right the soft metal is bad, and the design has a big flaw. They are trying to use an Oring to to support the shim, which is getting hella forces from that 1Million diff fluid and those support ridges on the ring gear and diff cup end. If that ridge was a large (1/8th inch wide) Flat, that alone would probably help stop the deformation of the shim, which allows more lash in the gear mesh in the diff.


I locked my R and C and rebuilt my front, but in just a pack or 2, the front is already starting to skip. So I'll put the last locker in and hope Vanquish or Treal or Vitavon gets us setup.

[meatmonkey]

Yes, one tekno Shim on the ring gear side in addition to the stock thrust washers.

[Timmahh]

Werd is Vitavon is on the hardened diff gears now.
My concern is the bad diff design out of the gate. Biggest issue as I see it is;

500k diff fluid forces the diff gears apart as it flows through, this added force is then transferred to the drive gears, which then push outwards into the shims, which is mostly supported by a soft ORING, that gives, allowing the shim to giveaway to the forces as it is pushed into the Oring, allowing deformation of the shim, which allows for more last in the diff, thus more gap between the diff geras, thus faster wear and bam.

I rebuilt my front diff a bit ago when I locked the C and R diffs up. Not even 2 whole 3s packs in, nothing really hard as far as running, and I can hear the diff going bad (Not the ring/pinion gear, or at least is almost certain its not, but could be, will have to inspect more once it goes to shit and I have to put in the last locker).

but Vitavon has hardened diff gears. Treal is looking at adding parts and I suggested they make them too.

I think the Vitavon Diff Cup, hardened diff gears, and a redesign of the shim/oring layout so you can get a really good shim/tolerance in the diffs, and eliminate the possibility of the drive cups being forced into the shims being supported by nothing more than a soft rubber oring, then the diffs will be pretty bulletproof.

But time will tell>>>

I know Vanquish is making parts, but not sure if they are on these yet or not. I suspect some of the first things will be some 2.2s, sway bar, and hopefully hardened diff gears with some od/ud optoins.

[meatmonkey]

What's kind of annoying is that due to the ridge on the stock ring gear I think the only real solution will require replacing the ring gear as well with one that evenly supports some oversized thrust washers. Meaning the entire diff assembly will need to be redesigned. Sounding not cheap. Why on earth didn't Axial pluck some real 1/8 diffs (with real 1/8 bearing sizes) from the Losi lineup for the Ryft? Seems like that would have been easier/cheaper than designing this all new craptacular diff setup we've been stuck with.

[Timmahh]

Originally Posted by meatmonkey

What's kind of annoying is that due to the ridge on the stock ring gear I think the only real solution will require replacing the ring gear as well with one that evenly supports some oversized thrust washers. Meaning the entire diff assembly will need to be redesigned. Sounding not cheap. Why on earth didn't Axial pluck some real 1/8 diffs (with real 1/8 bearing sizes) from the Losi lineup for the Ryft? Seems like that would have been easier/cheaper than designing this all new craptacular diff setup we've been stuck with.

Agree'd on the ridge. in my mechanical reasoning eye, not looking too deeply at a solution, I think that ridge should turn into a full shoulder from center to top of shim area.that would at least push evenly upon the shims, and not push the ridge into the oring behind the shim, deforming it.

I really think this is a simple fix as a shoulder, but Ive not really looked at the issue much deeper than seeing what was the cause imho.

[meatmonkey]

Anyone else having issues with the Vitavon spider gears and aluminum diff cups?

If I assemble them with the included shims the diff is locked up before the ring gear bolts are snugged. Even without any shims they are super rough and crunchy, even worse than the stock diffs. With double stacked paper gaskets they are somehow loose and still crunchy? Like wtf?

Plus one of the side gears has an awful marred up spot right where the o-ring resides, the rear axle shafts have a bit of rust on them, the shafts fit much looser into the side gears compared to the stock shafts.

There was grit and debris in the diff cups, like they were never cleaned after machining.

To say I'm not impressed with my first round of Vitavon products is an understatement. About now I'm really wishing there was another option for spider gears.

[Timmahh]

Originally Posted by meatmonkey

Anyone else having issues with the Vitavon spider gears and aluminum diff cups?

If I assemble them with the included shims the diff is locked up before the ring gear bolts are snugged. Even without any shims they are super rough and crunchy, even worse than the stock diffs. With double stacked paper gaskets they are somehow loose and still crunchy? Like wtf?

Plus one of the side gears has an awful marred up spot right where the o-ring resides, the rear axle shafts have a bit of rust on them, the shafts fit much looser into the side gears compared to the stock shafts.

There was grit and debris in the diff cups, like they were never cleaned after machining.

To say I'm not impressed with my first round of Vitavon products is an understatement. About now I'm really wishing there was another option for spider gears.

Well, that's a bit of a drag to hear. I heard someone say KYX has them available now, but Ive not seen them yet. Not sure how they'd by either.

Josh from VP said it was pretty likely that they'd being doing gearsets, but no eta as of yet either.

[meatmonkey]

Yeah, vanquish has been "working on " spider gears for several months. Any day now would be nice.

I've also discovered the cross pins for the spider gears fit a bit loose into the slots on the aluminum different cups, certainly not helping keep the gears in alignment. The O-rings fit loosely into there bores in the diff cup. After much mix-matching I've come to b the conclusion that neither the side gears or spider gears are properly. Like the tooth profile isn't right and the gears barely have any mesh. The gears have to push themselves apart to even pass by each other, which allows wicked slop if you just toss them together without shims, adding shims just binds everything up. Basically the whole setup is junk. I got 3 gear sets, and 3 different cups, and they are all equally flawed.

I'm wishing I just bought one set to check out, but these were supposed to to be the holy grail for Ryft diffs, so I got all three expensive paperweights thinking for sure this was the ticket for reliable Ryft diffs. I could not have been more wrong.

I also discovered that the Ryff diff architecture goes back to the Twin Hammer. The spider gears and cross shafts, but not the side gears, are interchangeable. The Twin parts have a nicer finish and are harder. Shocker that diffs designed for a 5lb truck with 4.6" tires are struggling to stay together under an 8lb truck with 6" tires and much more power!